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Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion? (Read 3629 times)
Ray_A
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Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Mar 30th, 2008 at 12:14pm
 
Has anyone read Eric Hoffer's The True Believer (subtitle: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements)? I think he hits the nail on the head with this quote:

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“So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.” (Luther) To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason. It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible. What we know as blind faith is sustained by innumerable unbeliefs. The fanatical Japanese in Brazil refused to believe for four years the evidence of Japan’s defeat. The fanatical communist refuses to believe any unfavorable report or evidence about Russia, nor will he be disillusioned by seeing with his own eyes that the cruel misery inside the Soviet promise land.

It is the true believers ability to “shut his eyes and stop his ears” to facts that do not deserve to be either seen or heard which is the source of his unequaled fortitude and constancy. He cannot be frightened by danger nor disheartened by obstacles nor baffled by contradictions because he denies their existence. Strength of faith, as Bergson pointed out, manifests itself not in moving mountains but in not seeing mountains to move. And it is the certitude of his infallible doctrine that renders the true believer impervious to the uncertainties, surprises and the unpleasant realities of the world around him.

Thus the effectiveness of a doctrine should not be judged by its profundity, sublimity or the validity of the truths it embodies, but by how thoroughly it insulates the individual from his self and the world as it is. What Pascal said of an effective religion is true of any effective doctrine: it must be “contrary to nature, to common sense, and to pleasure”.


I think religion can be a very good thing, but I'm startled at the petulant nonsense I sometimes see coming from believers. The last quote I read was "I don't believe in science anymore". Sometimes I really wonder if religion is the way Dawkins described it, like some kind of "virus of the mind". On the other hand, one can also be a one-eye materialist, closing one's mind to all but dogma in a "closed universe". I left the last forum I was on because I just couldn't hack the ridiculous ideas and beliefs. Didn't want to be an obnoxious dick, so I decided to blow off my steam by deleting my account. But really, was the Grand Canyon formed 6,000 years ago? And did Noah have kangaroos and koalas on the Ark? I suppose I should keep an open mind on that one.  Cheesy

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Ray_A
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #1 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 3:52pm
 
You see, the real problem with religion is that it SCREWS people's minds. And makes them believe out of necessity, not reality. It can be pretty mind-distorting, and even make people believe that Noah, or even Jesus Christ, actually existed.  
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oceanz
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #2 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 3:58pm
 
Ray_A wrote on Mar 30th, 2008 at 3:52pm:
You see, the real problem with religion is that it SCREWS people's minds. And makes them believe out of necessity, not reality. It can be pretty mind-distorting, and even make people believe that Noah, or even Jesus Christ, actually existed.  


Agree compeletly Ray_A.

How many wars are based on and fed by "fire and brimstone".?

So many contradictions in the bible ..


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Ray_A
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #3 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 4:05pm
 
oceanz wrote on Mar 30th, 2008 at 3:58pm:
Agree compeletly Ray_A.

How many wars are based on and fed by "fire and brimstone".?

So many contradictions in the bible ..




The Bible should win an award for the best fiction presented as reality. I'm sure Job really existed.  Cheesy
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freediver
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #4 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 4:13pm
 
People's minds are already screwed. I see just as much bigotry coming from some atheists who see science as some kind of moral compass. Religion is not the cause, it's just the language in which it is expressed.
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Ray_A
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #5 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 4:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 30th, 2008 at 4:13pm:
People's minds are already screwed. I see just as much bigotry coming from some atheists who see science as some kind of moral compass. Religion is not the cause, it's just the language in which it is expressed.


I have ample criticisms of atheists already posted on the web. The devoted atheist is no different than the devoted believer. And that's why I referred to Hoffer's The True Believer.

The "true believer" is "on the march", everywhere. His/her religion can only be differentiated by claims. Both claim to be "ultimate truth" (though atheists clothe this with, KNOWING, which is an ironical repetition of the religious version of "knowing truth")


There are two types of people who aroused my skepticism. The believer who claims to know "all truth", and the unbeliever who claims to have the definitive answers to "all truth".

Both need to wash this dogma down with a chicken-chilli kebab.
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #6 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 6:32pm
 
if every person only believed what the specifically saw with their own eyes then every generation would have to start again. the entire basis of our knowledge is through writing.

basing belief on jesus through the scriptures is much the same as believing that hannibal existed through reading livy. nothing one eyed about that.
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #7 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 7:09pm
 
Not many people doubt that Jesus existed.
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #8 - Mar 30th, 2008 at 8:06pm
 
The vast majority of athiests I have chatted with are very good people.
I like them, have time and respect for them.

Yep, religion gets it wrong when it forces its own specific beliefs onto others.
When freedom of choice/speech is denied, there is something fundamentally wrong.
Spiritually wrong.


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Ray_A
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #9 - Mar 31st, 2008 at 2:19am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 30th, 2008 at 7:09pm:
Not many people doubt that Jesus existed.


That's true. Even historians generally accept this. I think such a figure probably did exist, at least a prophet who, according to Jewish tradition, "led the people astray". He was considered by the Jews to be a false prophet. However, I think the Jesus historical traditions are much exaggerated. The problem is that when you examine secular or extra-biblical sources for Jesus' existence, there's precious little, and no contemporary accounts exist, not even in the Bible (they were written much later). I've looked at this in quite a lot of detail. If anyone can find me a contemporary account of Jesus' life, by first hand witnesses, and written by non-believers or simply contemporary observers, or from any contemporary historical record which records facts (which we have of Julius Caesar, for example, in much detail, and he lived long before Jesus) about Jesus which correlate with the events of the time, then they will go down as the first person in history to reveal this.  Search all you want, and you will find nothing, and it has been debated to death.
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #10 - Mar 31st, 2008 at 3:22pm
 
Hi Ray,
Good posts you do.  Witty.

A roman historian mentioned early christians .


"Tacitus was a Roman historian who wrote 'Annals' in 115 CE. He talks about the Emperor Nero's persecution of Christians in Rome in 64 CE. There had been a great fire in Rome which people thought had been started by Nero to clear room for a big new palace.
Tacitus wrote:
"To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following."
Annals 15 : 44.
Tacitus did not like Christians. He said:
•      Christ was executed while Tiberius was Emperor (14-37 CE).
•      He was executed by order of Pontius Pilate (procurator from 26-36 CE).
•      His movement had its origins in Judea.
•      There were enough Christian believers at Rome by CE 64 to be made scapegoats by the Emperor Nero."


http://www.request.org.uk/main/history/jesus/Jesus05.htm


Tacitus does not say Jesus but says "Christus".  He also states specific details that are in agreeance. 


Anyway, my calendar says 2008, BC. 
So something happened 2008 years ago, or thereabouts to start my calendar at 0 AD.

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Ray_A
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #11 - Mar 31st, 2008 at 4:11pm
 
Sprint,

No doubt there was some kind of figure which later historians referred to. I don't dispute that. Jesus was some kind of messianic figure, a radical who sought to refine Judaism. The existence of this "figure" is not what is so much in doubt, but whether he actually did what his enthusiastic followers reported - like walking on water, and rising from the dead. Maybe their accounts are true, but they are unverifiable from contemporary sources, which is no surprise. Even if they were reported, they would not have been believed by skeptics, and most historians are skeptics. There is little question, by the way, that Josephus' account was manipulated by later "apologists" for Christianity. This interpolation does not read consistent with his (Josephus) writing. But interpolation aside, this doesn't make Jesus a fraud.  What I want to understand, and my quest is on-going, is how we separate embellishment from fact. From the historian's perspective, this is not easy. From the believer's perspective, it's quite easy.

The gist of my argument is that proof is shortcoming. But a lack of proof does not substantiate any dogma, including the dogma that "Jesus never existed". History isn't an exact science, and is full of speculation at times, and in the time of Jesus, there were no historians, so to speak, who graduated from Oxford University. The methodical study of history is only fairly recent, and over time this profession, like most, has resorted to "Occam's Razor" definitions of "truth". That is, if it doesn't fit - reject it. I don't think for one minute this method is foolproof. In the end, I think faith is a personal thing.  

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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #12 - Mar 31st, 2008 at 8:22pm
 
Ray_A wrote on Mar 31st, 2008 at 4:11pm:
Sprint,

No doubt there was some kind of figure which later historians referred to. I don't dispute that. Jesus was some kind of messianic figure, a radical who sought to refine Judaism. The existence of this "figure" is not what is so much in doubt, but whether he actually did what his enthusiastic followers reported - like walking on water, and rising from the dead. Maybe their accounts are true, but they are unverifiable from contemporary sources, which is no surprise. Even if they were reported, they would not have been believed by skeptics, and most historians are skeptics. There is little question, by the way, that Josephus' account was manipulated by later "apologists" for Christianity. This interpolation does not read consistent with his (Josephus) writing. But interpolation aside, this doesn't make Jesus a fraud.  What I want to understand, and my quest is on-going, is how we separate embellishment from fact. From the historian's perspective, this is not easy. From the believer's perspective, it's quite easy.

The gist of my argument is that proof is shortcoming. But a lack of proof does not substantiate any dogma, including the dogma that "Jesus never existed". History isn't an exact science, and is full of speculation at times, and in the time of Jesus, there were no historians, so to speak, who graduated from Oxford University. The methodical study of history is only fairly recent, and over time this profession, like most, has resorted to "Occam's Razor" definitions of "truth". That is, if it doesn't fit - reject it. I don't think for one minute this method is foolproof. In the end, I think faith is a personal thing.  



mark was written 20 years after jesus life, luke and matthew within a few decades after that. hardly not during the time...

the historian Josephus mentions jesus and Jogn the baptist in his Antiquities of the Jews.
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #13 - Mar 31st, 2008 at 9:07pm
 
Ray - Yes, I'ld agree there is no hard and fast fact Jesus was around.
When he was executed, he was not well known, or a hero, or widely liked.

As you so wisely say :- "In the end, I think faith is a personal thing."
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Re: Why is there so much apparent bigotry in religion?
Reply #14 - Apr 1st, 2008 at 5:17am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 31st, 2008 at 9:07pm:
As you so wisely say :- "In the end, I think faith is a personal thing."


I don't know if you've ever read Albert Schweitzer, Sprint, but he researched the life of Jesus and wrote a book about it titled The Quest Of The Historical Jesus; A Critical Study Of Its Progress From Reimarus To Wrede. (1906) Some excerpts:

Quote:
"But the others, those who tried to bring Jesus to life at the call of love, found it a cruel task to be honest. The critical study of the life of Jesus has been for theology a school of honesty. The world had never seen before, and will never see again, a struggle for truth so full of pain and renunciation as that of which the Lives of Jesus of the last hundred years contain the cryptic record."


Quote:
"When we have once made up our minds that we have not the materials for a complete Life of Jesus, but only for a picture of His public ministry, it must be admitted that there are few characters of antiquity about whom we possess so much indubitably historical information, of whom we have so many authentic discourses."


But I think Schweitzer puts it best here, and it encapsulates why there is such a fascination with Jesus:

Quote:
"The study of the Life of Jesus has had a curious history. It set out in quest of the historical Jesus, believing that when it had found Him it could bring Him straight into our time as a Teacher and Saviour. ... But He does not stay; He passes by our time and returns to His own. ... He returned to His own time, not owing to the application of any historical ingenuity, but by the same inevitable necessity by which the liberated pendulum returns to its original position. ... Jesus means something to our world because a mighty spiritual force streams forth from Him and flows through our time also. This fact can neither be shaken nor confirmed by any historical discovery. It is the solid foundation of Christianity."


This is basically how the gospels have also influenced me.  I recognise this "mighty spiritual force" (and I think you do too), and I respect that. Unfortunately I think Jesus was also right when he said that men would eventually kill in God's name, and there will come "many false prophets" claiming to be of God. Is it any wonder that we saw things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, and people burnt at the stake for going contrary to "the word of God" in the Bible? I think the churches have a lot to answer for.

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