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Climate Change Debate (Read 26281 times)
pjb05
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #30 - Apr 5th, 2008 at 8:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2008 at 7:35pm:
Carbon trading and technological mandates are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore pricing mechanisms will create the economic incentive for the changes you describe, but only after cheaper alternatives have been exploited. Pricing mechanisms remove the need for specific mandates.

The lack of reductions is down to the soft targets chosen, not the mechanism. The same lack of political will would hamstring a mechanism based on specific mandates, in addition to the extra economic damage they would do.


There is no guarantee that making fossil fuels more expensive will curb their use. The oil price for instance has quadrupled in the last few years and demand is still increasing. Also if a greener energy saves someone money you can't be sure that they won't spend the money saved on a high emitting activity. Eg using the money saved driving a 'green' car to work on holiday air travel. 

The greatest emitters are power plants generating electricity. These are therfore the biggest opportunity for reductions. A lot of these are government owned and therfore lend themselves to direct measures rather than relying on some price signal.
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freediver
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Reply #31 - Apr 5th, 2008 at 10:10pm
 
There is no guarantee that making fossil fuels more expensive will curb their use.

Yes there is.

The oil price for instance has quadrupled in the last few years and demand is still increasing.

Demand would be higher if the price were lower.

Also if a greener energy saves someone money you can't be sure that they won't spend the money saved on a high emitting activity.

They may do so, but there would be fewer emissions involved if a price on emissions was the driving force. If government mandates were the driving force, what you describe may well result in more emissions.

The greatest emitters are power plants generating electricity. These are therfore the biggest opportunity for reductions. A lot of these are government owned and therfore lend themselves to direct measures rather than relying on some price signal.

You are ignoring the cheapest way to reduce emissions from these plants. It is not through government mandates for changes to the plant. It is through a reduction in electricity consumption. Both will reduce emissions from the plant, but the path of goverment mandates will be more expensive, partly because you will be trying to get the same reduction through far fewer mechanisms.

Of course they 'lend themselves' to government mandates, especially if you are looking for a politically easy solution. But it would be worse for the economy.



Here is an example for you PJ. In addition to reducing the number of passengers, high fuel costs are forcing airlines to 'cut the fat' in any way they can. There is no way that the government could start effectively legislating on the weight of a spoon that is allowed to be used on a plane.

Airlines Try To Lighten Up - Literally

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/04/airlines-try-to.html

What do airlines do when their annual fuel bills double? For one thing, they put their planes on a diet.

With fuel now an airline's single largest expense (followed by labor), CNN reports that carriers are desperately trying anything that will save money at the pump. Reducing aircraft weight is one strategy, so the airlines are going over their planes with a fine tooth comb and tossing anything that isn't absolutely necessary .

You have to give it to the airlines, they've left no stone unturned. Just how far are they going?

US Airways is chucking meal carts and replacing them with models that are 12 pounds lighter. They've also tossed the glassware in first class in favor of less jet-set but lighter plastic cups. Carriers also are pulling magazine racks, trash compactors and ovens (because honestly, what U.S. airline is broiling up hot meals these days?)

American Airlines has all but called in Jenny Craig to shave weight from its fleet, pulling in-seat phones and their heavy wiring, removing lavatory power converters and investing in lighter silverware for business class passengers. American, which has something of a reputation for chopping costs (its legendary former CEO Bob Crandall once bragged that he saved the airline $40,000 by removing olives from first class dinner salads), has fired up the troops by forming an employee-driven "Fuel Smart Team" charged with continually searching for ways to save energy. Though it should be noted that American was lambasted earlier this year for flying a 225-seat Boeing 777 from Chicago to London with just five passengers on board.



And another:

Smaller Is Bigger

http://gas2.org/2008/04/06/smaller-is-bigger/

Auto sales in the U.S. during the last three months have been down, except for the smaller, cheaper and not-so-thirsty cars, with starting prices from $12,000 to $14,000, according to Autodata.
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« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2008 at 5:51pm by freediver »  

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muso
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #32 - Apr 10th, 2008 at 1:42pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Apr 5th, 2008 at 6:18pm:
muso wrote on Apr 3rd, 2008 at 10:15pm:
[quote author=pjb05 link=1206174117/15#16 date=1206247070]


Now without being fired, that's as close as I can come to telling you how it operates. Carbon trading not only works - It's quite lucrative.


Define 'works'. Emissions are still rising and are likely to continue to do so. Europe has emissions trading and is struggling to meet targets.  


Some reduction is better than none. California is quite a good success story. They have cut carbon emissions across the board through alternative energy and smart building design. In comparison to the other states in the US, we're talking about a 50% reduction. If they can do that using off-the-shelf technology, why can't others. If it were a country, California would be about number 11 in the world in terms of gross GDP.

I could also give the example of Iceland, which plans to phase out fossil fuel completely by 2050 but that's only about 250,000 inhabitants, and (like Australia) has enormous geothermal reserves.

Interesting link:

http://www.geothermal-resources.com.au/
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muso
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #33 - Apr 10th, 2008 at 1:48pm
 
pjb05 wrote on Apr 5th, 2008 at 6:18pm:
Europe has emissions trading and is struggling to meet targets.  


That's quite true unfortunately. In the 1990's we were increasing CO2 production by around 1% per annum globally. Between 2002 and the present day, we had an annual global increase of 2-3% per annum.

The word runaway springs to mind.
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pjb05
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #34 - Jul 18th, 2008 at 6:44pm
 
An interesting article in the Australian today:

No smoking hot spotFont Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print David Evans | July 18, 2008
I DEVOTED six years to carbon accounting, building models for the Australian Greenhouse Office. I am the rocket scientist who wrote the carbon accounting model (FullCAM) that measures Australia's compliance with the Kyoto Protocol, in the land use change and forestry sector.

FullCAM models carbon flows in plants, mulch, debris, soils and agricultural products, using inputs such as climate data, plant physiology and satellite data. I've been following the global warming debate closely for years.

When I started that job in 1999 the evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming seemed pretty good: CO2 is a greenhouse gas, the old ice core data, no other suspects.

The evidence was not conclusive, but why wait until we were certain when it appeared we needed to act quickly? Soon government and the scientific community were working together and lots of science research jobs were created. We scientists had political support, the ear of government, big budgets, and we felt fairly important and useful (well, I did anyway). It was great. We were working to save the planet.

But since 1999 new evidence has seriously weakened the case that carbon emissions are the main cause of global warming, and by 2007 the evidence was pretty conclusive that carbon played only a minor role and was not the main cause of the recent global warming. As Lord Keynes famously said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

There has not been a public debate about the causes of global warming and most of the public and our decision makers are not aware of the most basic salient facts:

1. The greenhouse signature is missing. We have been looking and measuring for years, and cannot find it.

Each possible cause of global warming has a different pattern of where in the planet the warming occurs first and the most. The signature of an increased greenhouse effect is a hot spot about 10km up in the atmosphere over the tropics. We have been measuring the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes: weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. They show no hot spot. Whatsoever.

If there is no hot spot then an increased greenhouse effect is not the cause of global warming. So we know for sure that carbon emissions are not a significant cause of the global warming. If we had found the greenhouse signature then I would be an alarmist again.

When the signature was found to be missing in 2007 (after the latest IPCC report), alarmists objected that maybe the readings of the radiosonde thermometers might not be accurate and maybe the hot spot was there but had gone undetected. Yet hundreds of radiosondes have given the same answer, so statistically it is not possible that they missed the hot spot.

Recently the alarmists have suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, but instead take the radiosonde wind measurements, apply a theory about wind shear, and run the results through their computers to estimate the temperatures. They then say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hot spot. If you believe that you'd believe anything.

2. There is no evidence to support the idea that carbon emissions cause significant global warming. None. There is plenty of evidence that global warming has occurred, and theory suggests that carbon emissions should raise temperatures (though by how much is hotly disputed) but there are no observations by anyone that implicate carbon emissions as a significant cause of the recent global warming.

3. The satellites that measure the world's temperature all say that the warming trend ended in 2001, and that the temperature has dropped about 0.6C in the past year (to the temperature of 1980). Land-based temperature readings are corrupted by the "urban heat island" effect: urban areas encroaching on thermometer stations warm the micro-climate around the thermometer, due to vegetation changes, concrete, cars, houses. Satellite data is the only temperature data we can trust, but it only goes back to 1979. NASA reports only land-based data, and reports a modest warming trend and recent cooling. The other three global temperature records use a mix of satellite and land measurements, or satellite only, and they all show no warming since 2001 and a recent cooling.

4. The new ice cores show that in the past six global warmings over the past half a million years, the temperature rises occurred on average 800 years before the accompanying rise in atmospheric carbon. Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.

None of these points are controversial. The alarmist scientists agree with them, though they would dispute their relevance.

The last point was known and past dispute by 2003, yet Al Gore made his movie in 2005 and presented the ice cores as the sole reason for believing that carbon emissions cause global warming. In any other political context our cynical and experienced press corps would surely have called this dishonest and widely questioned the politician's assertion.

Until now the global warming debate has merely been an academic matter of little interest. Now that it matters, we should debate the causes of global warming.

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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #35 - Jul 18th, 2008 at 6:45pm
 
So far that debate has just consisted of a simple sleight of hand: show evidence of global warming, and while the audience is stunned at the implications, simply assert that it is due to carbon emissions.

In the minds of the audience, the evidence that global warming has occurred becomes conflated with the alleged cause, and the audience hasn't noticed that the cause was merely asserted, not proved.

If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?

The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming. Evidence consists of observations made by someone at some time that supports the idea that carbon emissions cause global warming. Computer models and theoretical calculations are not evidence, they are just theory.

What is going to happen over the next decade as global temperatures continue not to rise? The Labor Government is about to deliberately wreck the economy in order to reduce carbon emissions. If the reasons later turn out to be bogus, the electorate is not going to re-elect a Labor government for a long time. When it comes to light that the carbon scare was known to be bogus in 2008, the ALP is going to be regarded as criminally negligent or ideologically stupid for not having seen through it. And if the Liberals support the general thrust of their actions, they will be seen likewise.

The onus should be on those who want to change things to provide evidence for why the changes are necessary. The Australian public is eventually going to have to be told the evidence anyway, so it might as well be told before wrecking the economy.

Dr David Evans was a consultant to the Australian Greenhouse Office from 1999 to 2005.

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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #36 - Jul 18th, 2008 at 10:53pm
 
pjb05 - yes, hopefully it will see the end of the ALP.

The libs mistake is to follow ruddydudd down the populist sham avenue.
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #37 - Jul 19th, 2008 at 7:44am
 
David Evans is an ass. Rocket scientist? Don't make me laugh. He's just a computer geek. I refuse to waste my time on such nonsense because thankfully there is less and less of it these days.

The problem is that gullible journalists actually report this kind of thing.
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #38 - Jul 19th, 2008 at 11:58pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 19th, 2008 at 7:44am:
The problem is that gullible journalists actually report this kind of thing.


No, they're not gullible. It just a tactic of disinformation to confuse and stifle the facts. Basically, it the skeptic's favourite catch-phrase "Some experts disagree....."
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #39 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 7:54am
 
All his points about the science are well known, peer reviewed and largely undisputed. So far all I have heard here in rebutal is name calling.
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muso
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #40 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 8:10am
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 7:54am:
All his points about the science are well know, peer reviewed and largely undisputed. So far all I have heard here in rebutal is name calling.


Yeah. He's good at the science - of computer programming. Ever wonder why he's always the second author? "..... and Evans"

By the way, you know that most of his work was related to computer models such as CAMfor and fullCAM? Those models are very much down at the detail level, and are totally unrelated to atmospheric science and climatology. They were accounting models used to determine carbon emissions for a number of low-end emitters such as forestry and domestic scenarios. They are useful as a few extra jigsaw pieces added to give us the full picture on Australia's carbon emissions.

Maybe his contract was up and he wanted something more lucrative.

(edit - I meant unrelated)
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« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2008 at 9:31am by muso »  

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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #41 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 8:32am
 
Here's a link to Dave's company, "Science Speak":

http://www.sciencespeak.com/

Quote:
Science Speak is a scientific modeling and programming company, specializing in creating Windows programs written in C/C++. We are currently working on Writus, a word processor with full support for equations and very long documents. Sounds like fun, eh? Should be a best seller!

Our last scientific modeling job was to do carbon accounting for the Australian Government, from 1999 to 2005. We helped develop FullCAM, a leading carbon accounting model that estimates carbon in plants, debris, mulch, soils, and agricultural products.............



.....David Evans has a background in mathematics, computing, and electrical engineering. He also researches mathematics, in the areas of Fourier analysis, calculus, the number system, and multivariable polynomials.


You've got to use a certain ...discrimination with somebody who describes himself as a "Rocket Scientist" on their own CV  Grin
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« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2008 at 8:41am by muso »  

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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #42 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 9:47am
 
I thought it was obvious that he was using the term "rocket scientist" in a self mocking sort of way. As to his credentials, are they really that relevant when he is quoting other (climate) scientists work?
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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #43 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:28am
 
pjb05 wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 9:47am:
I thought it was obvious that he was using the term "rocket scientist" in a self mocking sort of way. As to his credentials, are they really that relevant when he is quoting other (climate) scientists work?


Correct. His credentials and experience are not relevant. They just seem to be relevant to the more gullible members of the general public.

If you look at his main arguments to date, he's basically saying that he doesn't understand the forcing effects of atmospheric CO2 and the related feedback of water vapour. Therefore they must be wrong. It goes against all scientific principles. If he really wanted to attack the basics, he would come up with some research that demonstrated it to be wrong. The problem is that he doesn't understand the basics enough.

Acid is quite correct in implying that it's a deliberately engineered campaign. They recruit people like Evans.
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« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:34am by muso »  

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Re: Climate Change Debate
Reply #44 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:43am
 
This article was also posted here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1216342758

In addition to my comments there:

Which says something important about which was cause and which was effect.

Can the computer programmer say what this important message is, or does his code not cover it? The fact that there may have been other causes previously is not in any way evidence that CO2 is not the cause today. That's the whole point of the current research.

If there really was any evidence that carbon emissions caused global warming, don't you think we would have heard all about it ad nauseam by now?

Of course, unless you've got your head in the sand...

The world has spent $50 billion on global warming since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence that carbon emissions cause global warming.

That's wrong PJ. Even the programmer acknowledges that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.

All his points about the science are well known, peer reviewed and largely undisputed. So far all I have heard here in rebutal is name calling.

Maybe, but his interpretations of them are illogical.

As to his credentials, are they really that relevant when he is quoting other (climate) scientists work?

No, but if he uses his credentials to back up his absurd intepretations, then yes.
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« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:49am by freediver »  

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