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Optional preferential voting (Read 55050 times)
freediver
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why optional preferential voting is bad
Reply #15 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 11:20am
 
http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

In NSW state elections for the lower house and in QLD state and local government elections, voters do not have to rank all of the candidates. This is called optional preferential voting (OPV), even though it is still compulsory to turn up and vote. OPV is a way to get rid of compulsory voting by stealth, without actually saving people the trouble of voting. Most people who promote it have a fundamental misunderstanding of how preferential voting works. They tend to think that being forced to rank the two major parties somehow works in their favour. In fact, the opposite is true. Optional preferential voting is a dream come true for the major parties and will help them hold on to power.

Optional preferential voting misleads most voters and is often promoted on fundamentally undemocratic principles. It is based on misidentifying the source of the two party duopoly, which is single member electorates rather than compulsory voting or preferential voting. Finally, optional preferential voting is likely to benefit the coalition above the Labor party in the short term, by fragmenting left wing voters under a ‘divide and conquer’ strategy.


Confusion with the federal Senate system
OPV is only rational if voting is entirely optional
Misrepresenting preferential voting
Optional voting and preferential voting are completely different issues
OPV helps the major parties, not the minor parties
The laziness argument
OPV is promoted on undemocratic principles
Single member electorates cause the two party duopoly, not compulsory voting
Optional preferential voting will benefit the coalition
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« Last Edit: Nov 28th, 2007 at 12:55pm by freediver »  

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freediver
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #16 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 11:18am
 
The same discussion, with Grendel this time:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1227070867/30#30
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Grendel
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #17 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 11:32am
 
what a crock...  there is no such thing as compulsory voting now...  something many of us pointed out to you on Cracker.

We even tried to get you to understand OP voting something you still seem to NOT understand.
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freediver
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #18 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 11:36am
 
Is that supposed to clarify the issue Grendel? Do you hold your hands over your ears when you insist that other people are wrong?
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #19 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 11:44am
 
The only problem I have had in the past is that MPV effectively forces you to vote for one of the major parties, because the best you can do is to put one second last and the other last. No matter what I do, I'm giving one of them a vote even though I don't particularly want to.

There have been several elections where I didn't want to vote for either of the major parties or candidates because I thought they were incompetent. If I had just numbered all the boxes except for the two major parties, the vote would have been informal.

Maybe the solution is to vote informal in these cases. Your sustainability party sounds worth voting for.
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« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2008 at 8:03pm by muso »  

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freediver
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #20 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 11:47am
 
Thanks muso.

If in the last election round there are only two parties left, then obviously you have to vote for one of them, even if you are not particularly fond of either. There are only two left. This is the same situation faced in any election where no candidate matches your views exactly. It does not in any way disadvantage the parties you ranked above the last two candidates.
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Grendel
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #21 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 11:56am
 
ah guys... 

Quote:
The only problem I have had in the past is that OPV effectively forces you to vote for one of the major parties, because the best you can do is to put one second last and the other last. No matter what I do, I'm giving one of them a vote even though I don't particularly want to.


this isn't OPTIONAL Preferential voting...  it is MANDATORY Preferential.

It also reiterates what I've been saying ad nauseum.
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freediver
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #22 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:01pm
 
The issue of mandatory preferential voting is no different to the issue of mandatory voting. Combining mandatory voting with preferential voting does not introduce any new issues. This is why the people who support OPV but still support mandatory voting are irrational. Optional preferential voting is just a way to take advantage of people's misunderstanding of preferential voting in order to bring in optional voting. In the end the major parties are the ones who benefit, even though the loudest supporters think it benefits the minor parties.
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Grendel
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #23 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:10pm
 
are you confusing mandatory voting with mandatory preferences yet again fd?

mandatory voting is where you must turn up to vote and get marked off..  In fact it is not mandatory voting.

mandatory preferences is where you must number all boxes on the ballot.
Optional preferences is where you can number only those boxes you wish.
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freediver
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #24 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:14pm
 
Quote:
mandatory voting is where you must turn up to vote and get marked off..  In fact it is not mandatory voting.


It is not possible to ensure that people also vote properly without violating the privacy of the secret ballot. This is only a technical distinction, as the law in practice cannot always act exactly as intended. I was not confusing anything. I was talking about mandatory voting. Technically the system we have/had is not mandatory preferential either. But I'm not going to insist on making that distinction as it doesn't shed and light on the issue.

The issue of mandatory preferential voting is no different to the issue of mandatory voting. Combining mandatory voting with preferential voting does not introduce any new issues. This is why the people who support OPV but still support mandatory voting are irrational. Optional preferential voting is just a way to take advantage of people's misunderstanding of preferential voting in order to bring in optional voting. In the end the major parties are the ones who benefit, even though the loudest supporters think it benefits the minor parties.
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« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:20pm by freediver »  

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Grendel
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #25 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:23pm
 
mandatory preferences and mandatory voting are very different things...

You need to sort that out first...  call me when you do and we'll try to progress...  until then...  I give up...  AGAIN.
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freediver
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #26 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:33pm
 
They are the same thing. No-one is forcing you to rank all candidates. You are more than welcome to vote informally. Now, if you don't mind we can get back to the real issue and stop getting hung up on whether it is technically mandatory or not.
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #27 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:40pm
 
If you want to vote...  you cant make an informal vote...   Roll Eyes

I really don't see why or how you don't get it.

and you are still confusing mandatory voting and mandatory preferences.
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #28 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 1:17pm
 
Grendel wrote on Nov 21st, 2008 at 12:40pm:
If you want to vote...  you cant make an informal vote...   Roll Eyes

I really don't see why or how you don't get it.

and you are still confusing mandatory voting and mandatory preferences.


I think I know what you're trying to say. Let's say I wanted to vote Green with no preferences (accidental support) to the other parties, there is no way I could do that with our current system. Like whoops I just helped to vote in Liberal/ALP whether I wanted to or not.

If I don't want to give any support to the major parties, but do want to register a primary vote for say Green, I can't do that. My only option is not to register a vote (either informal, or don't turn up and get fined) in which case, I don't get any vote.
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Grendel
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Re: Optional preferential voting
Reply #29 - Nov 21st, 2008 at 1:31pm
 
oh dear

you do realise we have different systems in NSW don't you.
you do realise I have no idea where you live.
But federally we have mandatory preferences in NSW and Optional preferential in State.

You have been arguing my argument...  so which one of us are you disagreeing with this time?  Sorry if I assumed it was me as you actually quoted me...   Grin

I have to admit I have 2 feelings about people who argue against me whilst agreeing with me...  1/Total bemusement at the stupidity of it and 2/ Complete frustration at the same thing.
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