In addition to Zoso, if you really believe in something, you should be proud to exclaim that.

I was brought up Catholic, but am now agnostic. Can you be proud for not believing in anything? 

Indeed freediver, through your staunch refusal to tell us more about yourself, some (including myself) have simply made assumption based on your opinions and attacked you ad hominem all the same. I would go so far as to say that concealing yourself has encouraged such pointlessness.

Besides, its just the internets!

Well Im a chocoholic- but i am currently on the wagon.

I took a tafe course in keeping it real..IE: abstaining

I have given everyone quite a few inches, and nothing has come of it? Trump and AN tried to attack me for being a hippy but I pointed out the irrelevance of that argument and it stopped there, that is what I am talking about when I say it is up to you to make sure the argument stays on track.

Sprint, I'm also a muso - I play guitar, I love working on cars and used to drink too much too, but have recently cut back due to the first hint of a beer gut

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2007 at 9:09am:

Maybe you need to think a little more about why your ideas are upsetting people so much freediver, perhaps it is not your ideas so much as it is your complete unwillingness to modify them in the face of contrary arguments?

You are right, you are not me, but I have had people threaten me and yes I do propose controversial ideas, for instance I support the decriminalisation of all drugs. Maybe you are drawing these threats and anger because of you, not you ideas? I know you certainly managed to get my blood boiling through the way you are so arrogant and dismissive to everyone, not because of your ideas. People get angry with people because of their behaviour, not their ideas, being someone who has historically pushed many more controversial ideas than you have here, I have learned all to well how important it is to treat others with due respect, and through this I have learned to soften my views dramatically because only through respect for my opponents was I truly able to see the strength in their own views.

Sometimes you give an inch, people take a mile, most of the time you give an inch, people give two back.

freediver wrote on Apr 18^th, 2007 at 1:30pm:

There is a difference between promoting your ideas and ignoring sense and reason. This is the difference between argument and debate. 'Promoting your ideas despite what criticism you get' sounds tome like you are just not willing to listen to rebuttal, other people can and do have just as valid points of view as you have. There is strength in the middle ground.

True, in politics or activism if you do not stir up a fuss you might not be achieving something, but if all you stir up is negative fuss, you are doing the opposite of achieving something, your positive results must always outweigh your negative results if you are to achieve anything, and I often don't see a lot of support for your ideas?

I can pinpoint one thing that absolutely boils my blood about debating with you - you staunchly refuse to accept other parties may be right to a degree at least, you will argue and change your arguments in subtle ways just to keep the debate raging, seemingly (from your admission) just to make sure you are always promoting your ideas. When you encounter a strong point that goes against your view, you refuse to acknowledge it, instead selecting some weaker and less relevant phrase and attacking it, diverting the debate. I will frequently bend to superior arguments and concede that indeed my opponent has a valid point, the tactics of argument for arguments sake are usually discarded when we grow up. It is possible to accept that someone is making a strong argument, and simply disagree, it shows strength in character to be able to admit to the weaknesses in your own arguments.

Frustration. It wasn't here that I was thinking of. It was on another forum.