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Islam is the cause of the conflict (Read 4005 times)
goosecat
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #75 - Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.
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goosecat
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #76 - Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:13pm
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #77 - Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:33pm
 
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.


Yes, that's what I said.

But a struggle between  good and evil is very real, perhaps the creator god has his eye on it, without knowing the outcome. ...
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goosecat
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #78 - Apr 29th, 2024 at 7:21pm
 
I think the struggle between "good"and "evil" in as much as the words are constructs of our own making is as debatable as the very definitions one might apply to each word. Is the Black hole evil for swallowing all around? Should not the "Creator" of the very fabric of all things, bare some responsibility for its outcomes? If we accept the creator "God" is not perfect and all knowing, does that not mean a level of "Good and "Evil" must also exist in the "Creator".
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« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2024 at 7:39pm by goosecat »  
 
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freediver
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #79 - Apr 29th, 2024 at 9:23pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:33pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.


Yes, that's what I said.

But a struggle between  good and evil is very real, perhaps the creator god has his eye on it, without knowing the outcome. ...


Is the party responsible for starving 50 million of their own people to death on the side of good or evil?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #80 - Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:43pm
 
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 7:21pm:
I think the struggle between "good"and "evil" in as much as the words are constructs of our own making is as debatable as the very definitions one might apply to each word.



Morality, justice and fairness - we all agree these concepts are attractive, yes?
....even though they are indeed inventions of the human mind.

What definitions do you want to put on these words?

Quote:
Is the Black hole evil for swallowing all around?


No, that's the structure of the physical world (including earthquakes, and tornadoes).

Good and evil refers to human behaviour and morality.   

Quote:
Should not the "Creator" of the very fabric of all things, bare some responsibility for its outcomes?


Well ..."If I were God, I would weep for creating this world": Schopenhauer.

....a pessimistic view;  if you are fortunate enough to love life and nature - but if you were an inmate of a concentration camp....

So to your question: is a creator responsible for his creation, when he doesn't know the outcome?

I would say -  not necessarily; eg, the reason for the creation is a factor, in 'responsibility'.   

But good and evil remains to be confronted by men.

Quote:
If we accept the creator "God" is not perfect and all knowing, does that not mean a level of "Good and "Evil" must also exist in the "Creator".


No, see above. 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #81 - Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 9:23pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:33pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.


Yes, that's what I said.

But a struggle between  good and evil is very real, perhaps the creator god has his eye on it, without knowing the outcome. ...


Is the party responsible for starving 50 million of their own people to death on the side of good or evil?


Responsibility under  Mao, yes.

'Good and evil' in this case is more like the loss of life in an earthquake or tornado - except rather than being an 'act of God' (sic) , it was an unintended consequence of the Party's collectivist policy. 

As opposed to the evil of the  IDF's revenge-driven genocide in Gaza, in an ongoing conflict based on the bungled Partition of Palestine. 


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freediver
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #82 - Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:57pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:56pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 9:23pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:33pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.


Yes, that's what I said.

But a struggle between  good and evil is very real, perhaps the creator god has his eye on it, without knowing the outcome. ...


Is the party responsible for starving 50 million of their own people to death on the side of good or evil?


Responsibility under  Mao, yes.

'Good and evil' in this case is more like the loss of life in an earthquake or tornado - except rather than being an 'act of God' (sic) , it was an unintended consequence of the Party's collectivist policy. 

As opposed to the evil of the  IDF's revenge-driven genocide in Gaza, in an ongoing conflict based on the bungled Partition of Palestine. 




When did the CCP stop being evil?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #83 - Apr 30th, 2024 at 1:42pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:57pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:56pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 9:23pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:33pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.


Yes, that's what I said.

But a struggle between  good and evil is very real, perhaps the creator god has his eye on it, without knowing the outcome. ...


Is the party responsible for starving 50 million of their own people to death on the side of good or evil?


Responsibility under  Mao, yes.

'Good and evil' in this case is more like the loss of life in an earthquake or tornado - except rather than being an 'act of God' (sic) , it was an unintended consequence of the Party's collectivist policy. 

As opposed to the evil of the  IDF's revenge-driven genocide in Gaza, in an ongoing conflict based on the bungled Partition of Palestine. 




When did the CCP stop being evil?


Low IQ, or poor comprehension skills? Read the post again.

But for your ideological-crippled, low IQ brain, the answer to that question is: the CCP  stopped being "evil"  from Deng on.

Unlike the revenge-driven, genocidal IDF, ever since the botched partition of Palestine.
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freediver
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #84 - Apr 30th, 2024 at 2:10pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 1:42pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:57pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:56pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 9:23pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:33pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.


Yes, that's what I said.

But a struggle between  good and evil is very real, perhaps the creator god has his eye on it, without knowing the outcome. ...


Is the party responsible for starving 50 million of their own people to death on the side of good or evil?


Responsibility under  Mao, yes.

'Good and evil' in this case is more like the loss of life in an earthquake or tornado - except rather than being an 'act of God' (sic) , it was an unintended consequence of the Party's collectivist policy. 

As opposed to the evil of the  IDF's revenge-driven genocide in Gaza, in an ongoing conflict based on the bungled Partition of Palestine. 




When did the CCP stop being evil?


Low IQ, or poor comprehension skills? Read the post again.

But for your ideological-crippled, low IQ brain, the answer to that question is: the CCP  stopped being "evil"  from Deng on.

Unlike the revenge-driven, genocidal IDF, ever since the botched partition of Palestine.


So the CCP starving 50 million people to death with an administrative error is an act of God, not and act of people, and therefor cannot be described as either good or evil?
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Frank
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #85 - Apr 30th, 2024 at 9:30pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:43pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 7:21pm:
I think the struggle between "good"and "evil" in as much as the words are constructs of our own making is as debatable as the very definitions one might apply to each word.



Morality, justice and fairness - we all agree these concepts are attractive, yes?


All about INDIVIDUAL responsibility.  They are not merely  'attractive' parrot, you are not in a shop.  They are central to being human - which is done individually, in company with others. You are an individual, idiotic little blowhard, you are not the collective.

YOU, stupid little bozo, make individual, free choices every minute of the day. Including when you come on here spouting moroninic nonsense about 'freedom ideology'. 

Justice, morality, fairness - ALL things individuals must adhere to. Freely. You cannot be forced to be just, moral, fair. These are individual acts, freely chosen. There is no other way to be just, moral, fair BUT freely.





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thegreatdivide
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #86 - May 1st, 2024 at 7:50pm
 
Frank wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 9:30pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:43pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 7:21pm:
I think the struggle between "good"and "evil" in as much as the words are constructs of our own making is as debatable as the very definitions one might apply to each word.



Morality, justice and fairness - we all agree these concepts are attractive, yes?


All about INDIVIDUAL responsibility.  They are not merely  'attractive' parrot, you are not in a shop.


(Sigh, the patience I need to enlighten Frank).

Morality, justice and fairness - human constructs - exist whether individuals are responsible or not, or whether individuals are survival of the fittest ideologues/goons  or not.   

Quote:
They are central to being human - which is done individually, in company with others. You are an individual, idiotic little blowhard, you are not the collective.


(sigh, my burden is unending while dealing with Frank).

1. Being human isn't "done individually", it's "done" by all humans in an infinite variety of ways, including from good to evil.

2. Indeed I am not the collective, I am an individual like you; the difference between us is I believe in morality, justice and fairness as the basis for rule of law to which the collective (all humans) ought to submit, and since even you seem to agree all individuals (the collective)  are attracted to these concepts.

Quote:
YOU, stupid little bozo, make individual, free choices every minute of the day. Including when you come on here spouting moroninic nonsense about 'freedom ideology'. 


Indeed I do - patiently trying to explain 'the human condition  to you....and why we are watching the slaughter of other humans every night on TV, as societies try to enforce their own ideas of "morality"and culture  on others.    

Quote:
Justice, morality, fairness - ALL things individuals must adhere to. Freely. You cannot be forced to be just, moral, fair. These are individual acts, freely chosen. There is no other way to be just, moral, fair BUT freely.


Oh dear, the contradiction in that statement is breathtaking: we "MUST" adhere to j,m and f, and we must do it "freely" no less.....no rule of law enforcing j, m, and f required.

See how your opening gambit turned the rest of your post into GIGO?






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Frank
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #87 - May 1st, 2024 at 7:58pm
 
You really do not understand anything, not even your  own empty slogans, let alone what anyone else says.

Silly parrot is correct.

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #88 - May 1st, 2024 at 8:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 2:10pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 1:42pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:57pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30th, 2024 at 12:56pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 9:23pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:33pm:
goosecat wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:09pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29th, 2024 at 6:00pm:
I think we have to accept 'God'  can grant free will to men, without God knowing the outcome.

Quote:
How can an all knowing God, whom genuinely knows everything before during and after, exist without knowing every decision before you make it?
 

Yes, that's a contradiction.



Without God knowing the outcome you say. How can an all knowing god not know? It's more likely IMHO, the ever expanding "Universe" and it's various "Unknowns" apply to all. including "God". Nothing, knows everything and indeed for "Free Will" to truly exist, must be the case.


Yes, that's what I said.

But a struggle between  good and evil is very real, perhaps the creator god has his eye on it, without knowing the outcome. ...


Is the party responsible for starving 50 million of their own people to death on the side of good or evil?


Responsibility under  Mao, yes.

'Good and evil' in this case is more like the loss of life in an earthquake or tornado - except rather than being an 'act of God' (sic) , it was an unintended consequence of the Party's collectivist policy. 

As opposed to the evil of the  IDF's revenge-driven genocide in Gaza, in an ongoing conflict based on the bungled Partition of Palestine. 


When did the CCP stop being evil?


Low IQ, or poor comprehension skills? Read the post again.

But for your ideological-crippled, low IQ brain, the answer to that question is: the CCP  stopped being "evil"  from Deng on.

Unlike the revenge-driven, genocidal IDF, ever since the botched partition of Palestine.


So the CCP starving 50 million people to death with an administrative error is an act of God, not and act of people, and therefor cannot be described as either good or evil?


Crippled comprehension from an ideologically crippled brain. 

Here it is again:

Responsibility under  Mao, yes.


We agree Mao was responsible for his collective agricultural-policy disaster in the 60's. 

'Good and evil' in this case is more like the loss of life in an earthquake or tornado - except rather than being an 'act of God' (sic) , it was an unintended consequence of the Party's collectivist policy. 


Note : my text read "except rather than being an act of God"

NOT  your reading  "is an act of god".

You can't even read what was written, perhaps neither low IQ or fraudulent, just afraid to deal with the argument and misreadig it.   


As opposed to the evil of the  IDF's revenge-driven genocide in Gaza, in an ongoing conflict based on the bungled Partition of Palestine. 


Now...that IS evil...

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« Last Edit: May 1st, 2024 at 8:15pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Islam is the cause of the conflict
Reply #89 - May 1st, 2024 at 8:11pm
 
Frank wrote on May 1st, 2024 at 7:58pm:
You really do not understand anything, not even your  own empty slogans, let alone what anyone else says.

Silly parrot is correct.


Frank, you better hope no adjudicator is judging this debate; the above is not debate.

Just as a mediator/judge is required to define morality, justice and fairness, to enable rule of law.   
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