Australian Politics Forum - Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam

Mattyfisk

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 93621
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #90 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:19pm

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

The erosion of Rome's power can be attributed to the erosion of the relatively inclusive political institutions that spurred its dramatic rise. The same can be seen in the rise and fall of the Venetian city-state. While the 'fall' hasn't happened, the same influence can be seen in the footprint of the French empire on continental Europe and much of the British empire's footprint.

Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world. Europe was the exception. The same success that caused Europeans to be slave owners in the new world is also what lead to the eventual eradication of slavery. Slavery was a symptom of their success, not a cause, as some would argue, which is why their success only increased with the eradication of slavery.

Without this key absence of slavery, the labour market changes that preceeded the industrial revolution would not have happened. The increased value of labour that followed plagues and the introduction of industrialisation would have been kept by the slave owners rather than passed on to the labourers and a key driver for the economic success of the relatively free-er norther European countries would have been lost. This is in fact what happened further east.

Yes, FD, but a pity you missed the part of history where the Christians ramped up slavery to industrial levels unprecedented even in the ancient world.

Still, history was never your strong point, was it?

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48513
At my desk.

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #91 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:21pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:00pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world.

Yes, slavery is redundant when a class system creates its own unique brand of slavery - serfdom...

Australia (or should I say the British in Australia) exploited its own unique brand of slavery... Convicts.

Its modern, 'democratic' incarnation? Illegal immigrants!

As Barry Humphreys had Dame Edna quip, "Illegal immigration... Democracy's answer to slavery".

There is a fundamental difference. When plagues created a labour shortage in Europe, those 'serfs' were able to move around and get higher paying jobs. It was the start of a free market in human labour. Without it, the emergence of today's civilised society from Western Europe would not have happened. The slave owners would have simply pocketed the increased value of their salves as they sold them to the highest bidder.

The latte socialists who try to equate what they don't like in the world today with the genuine slavery of the past are destroying one of history's most important lessons, and celebrating their own ignorance.

Quote:

Yes, FD, but a pity you missed the part of history where the Christians ramped up slavery to industrial levels unprecedented even in the ancient world.

No Karnal, I addressed it fairly openly, but then you would have to read the post to realise, wouldn't you?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Mattyfisk Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 93621 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #92 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:26pm Post it for me, FD. Do you have the simple ability to cut and paste? Cat got your tongue?
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48513 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #93 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:27pm You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Mattyfisk Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 93621 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #94 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:32pm freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:27pm: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Evading now, eh?
Back to top	IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #95 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:34pm

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:21pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:00pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world.

Yes, slavery is redundant when a class system creates its own unique brand of slavery - serfdom...

Australia (or should I say the British in Australia) exploited its own unique brand of slavery... Convicts.

Its modern, 'democratic' incarnation? Illegal immigrants!

As Barry Humphreys had Dame Edna quip, "Illegal immigration... Democracy's answer to slavery".

There is a fundamental difference. When plagues created a labour shortage in Europe, those 'serfs' were able to move around and get higher paying jobs. It was the start of a free market in human labour. Without it, the emergence of today's civilised society from Western Europe would not have happened. The slave owners would have simply pocketed the increased value of their salves as they sold them to the highest bidder.

The latte socialists who try to equate what they don't like in the world today with the genuine slavery of the past are destroying one of history's most important lessons, and celebrating their own ignorance.

It must have been a great comfort to serfs everywhere in Europe condemned to living in between plagues, knowing that in a mere couple of hundred years they'll be all economically 'free' for at least 20 years...

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48513 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #96 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:24pm I am not suggesting you thank these people for their serfdom. I am giving you the reality of history.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Mattyfisk

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 93621
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #97 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:29pm

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:24pm:

I am not suggesting you thank these people for their serfdom. I am giving you the reality of history.

That’s right. And Christendom.eradicated slavery from the world while it similtaneously brokered a burgeoning global slave trade.

Ah, the reality of history. It is a jolly world, no?

Back to top

IP Logged

GordyL

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 4365
Hate Town
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #98 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:36pm

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:19pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

The erosion of Rome's power can be attributed to the erosion of the relatively inclusive political institutions that spurred its dramatic rise. The same can be seen in the rise and fall of the Venetian city-state. While the 'fall' hasn't happened, the same influence can be seen in the footprint of the French empire on continental Europe and much of the British empire's footprint.

Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world. Europe was the exception. The same success that caused Europeans to be slave owners in the new world is also what lead to the eventual eradication of slavery. Slavery was a symptom of their success, not a cause, as some would argue, which is why their success only increased with the eradication of slavery.

Without this key absence of slavery, the labour market changes that preceeded the industrial revolution would not have happened. The increased value of labour that followed plagues and the introduction of industrialisation would have been kept by the slave owners rather than passed on to the labourers and a key driver for the economic success of the relatively free-er norther European countries would have been lost. This is in fact what happened further east.

Yes, FD, but a pity you missed the part of history where the Christians ramped up slavery to industrial levels unprecedented even in the ancient world.

Still, history was never your strong point, was it?

What are your thoughts on current day slavery like UAE A-Rabs keeping Paki men to build their towers and Paki boys to race their camels?

Back to top

On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

IP Logged

Mattyfisk

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 93621
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #99 - Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:49pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:36pm:

Mattyfisk wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:19pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

The erosion of Rome's power can be attributed to the erosion of the relatively inclusive political institutions that spurred its dramatic rise. The same can be seen in the rise and fall of the Venetian city-state. While the 'fall' hasn't happened, the same influence can be seen in the footprint of the French empire on continental Europe and much of the British empire's footprint.

Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world. Europe was the exception. The same success that caused Europeans to be slave owners in the new world is also what lead to the eventual eradication of slavery. Slavery was a symptom of their success, not a cause, as some would argue, which is why their success only increased with the eradication of slavery.

Without this key absence of slavery, the labour market changes that preceeded the industrial revolution would not have happened. The increased value of labour that followed plagues and the introduction of industrialisation would have been kept by the slave owners rather than passed on to the labourers and a key driver for the economic success of the relatively free-er norther European countries would have been lost. This is in fact what happened further east.

Yes, FD, but a pity you missed the part of history where the Christians ramped up slavery to industrial levels unprecedented even in the ancient world.

Still, history was never your strong point, was it?

What are your thoughts on current day slavery like UAE A-Rabs keeping Paki men to build their towers and Paki boys to race their camels?

Little more than slavery. I’ve met a few Curries, Sri Lankans and Philippinos who sign up for this. They pretty much give up their lives to get their kids an education and, hopefully, help their children spend their lives with their own families.

In the developing world, this is what men do - work in the cities while their families live back in their villiage. This is how globalised labour works. It’s FI/FO tinted-style.

Personally, I’m grateful I’m in the top ten percent of the world’s population not subject to such modern indentured labour. When privaleged people like me rail against the tinted races, they’re clawing back their own class interests.

Modern racism is not so much about race, but class. Your aversion to tinted working conditions hits the nail right on the head.

Of course, to a hammer everything looks like a nail, no?

Stop the boats indeed.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:56pm by Mattyfisk »

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #100 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 6:18am

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 10:24pm:

I am not suggesting you thank these people for their serfdom. I am giving you the reality of history.

I think the reality of history (or human nature) in this context is that of how a ruling class can always find ever inventive ways of conjuring a social structure to have the lowest ranks do all the heavy lifting cheaply or for free - without too much of a risk of revolution.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Hop David

New Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 1
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #101 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 7:04am

Just prior to the opening with the Arabic Star Names Tyson did a shtick on President Bush (Google for Bush, Tyson and star names video). Sadly for Tyson, his story was shown to be false. (Google Adler, Washington Post, Tyson).

I am surprised people think Tyson is credible. I believe Tyson is making up the passage where Ghazali supposedly says math is the work of the devil.

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #102 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 7:40am

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 9:02pm:

The center of western civilisation only moved out of the area covered by the Caliphate when it was in Rome. None of this makes sense as an explanation for why the Muslims could not rebuild an even better empire.

Rome had been the centre of western civilization for many hundreds of years before Islam came along. That 'paradise of civilization' that you seem to think encompassed the future caliphate was basically a desert wasteland - long since abandoned by Rome, and decimated by decades of war between the Persians and East Romans. Centres that were still standing when Islam took over undeniably became more prosperous and more productive under Islam (from you own source). More importantly they built major cultural and intellectual centres from scratch. The idea that they actually made places worse when they took over is beyond laughable.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48513
At my desk.

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #103 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm

Quote:

Rome had been the centre of western civilization for many hundreds of years before Islam came along.

Civilisation does not disappear in a few centuries Gandalf. The Europeans were harkening back to the glory days of Rome for over a millenia.

Quote:

That 'paradise of civilization' that you seem to think encompassed the future caliphate was basically a desert wasteland - long since abandoned by Rome

So Rome just walked out and left it when they noticed the desert? Would you describe the Nile delta as a desert wasteland? What about those places you previously described as breadbaskets? Also desert wasteland? Is Italy some kind of island of green in a brown mediterranean wasteland?

Quote:

and decimated by decades of war

Just like the downfall of every other great civilisation in the past. That did not stop the next, bigger civilisation from rebuilding something far better. Why are Muslims so uniquely unable to improve upon what came before and what even existed concurrently in the east? Why do you keep spinning this BS without addressing this fundamental point? Are you having trouble understanding it? Was it all America's fault perhaps?

Quote:

Centres that were still standing when Islam took over undeniably became more prosperous and more productive under Islam (from you own source).

To a level far below what the Romans had achieved without precedent.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #104 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 6:15pm

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:
Centres that were still standing when Islam took over undeniably became more prosperous and more productive under Islam (from you own source).

To a level far below what the Romans had achieved without precedent.

So they did improve even just a little bit eh?

What happened to the line about Islam making every place they conquered worse? You do remember your claim about Cordoba don't you? Do you even know where Cordoba is?

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged