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Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam (Read 48734 times)
Mattyfisk
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #75 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 6:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 6:26pm:
I think even you could manage Karnal.


Are you sure? You make it look so easy.
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Frank
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #76 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 7:03pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 1:55pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 1:23pm:
It does beg the question, though, that if the doctrine can be misconstrued on this matter, it stands to reason that Islamic doctrine may not be so very clear.


I'd be very happy if Islamic-critics ran with that line. Instead of what I have to contend with here, that Islamic doctrine is crystal clear in its evilness, oppression, anti-freedom etc etc - and thats the end of the matter. And that the best thing muslims can do is be less Islamic, or, preferably, not muslim at all.



Can you point to any historic even where Islam stood for freedom, openness, human dignity, freedom of conscience, speech, association?


I can't. Please help.



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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #77 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 7:06pm
 
The period until Muhammed gained some political authority.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #78 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 6:23pm:
For most of human history, the most advanced civilisations were in Iraq, Iran and Egypt. Many of these places played a significant role in the Roman Empire. Islam conquered these and they have remained a backwater ever since. The creation of Bagdhad is hardly a major event in the history of human development.


Such crap on so many levels.

Firstly, neither Iraq or Iran or Egypt had been centres of great civilization for hundreds if not thousands of years before Islam came. The wars of the Byzantines and the Persians had largely decimated both populations and economies of the once great Mesopotamia, and it was Islam that rebuilt it. As for Egypt, it was the breadbasket of the East Roman Empire until the muslims conquered it. Yet despite its importance for the East Romans, their energy output was still lower than what the muslims produced during the caliphate. Again, this is from the Morris data.

The creation of Baghdad was a major event for human development, as it became an intellectual hub for scientific advancement as well as translation of Greek works - which of course later found its way to the west, contributing to the start of the renaissance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom

freediver wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 6:23pm:
The Muslims depopulated a lot of the Italian coastline catching slaves.


Thats the second time you've made this bs claim. Muslim slave raids along the Italian coast didn't start until after 1500AD. At least get some clue about basic historical facts  FD.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #79 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:11pm
 
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 7:03pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 1:55pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 1:23pm:
It does beg the question, though, that if the doctrine can be misconstrued on this matter, it stands to reason that Islamic doctrine may not be so very clear.


I'd be very happy if Islamic-critics ran with that line. Instead of what I have to contend with here, that Islamic doctrine is crystal clear in its evilness, oppression, anti-freedom etc etc - and thats the end of the matter. And that the best thing muslims can do is be less Islamic, or, preferably, not muslim at all.



Can you point to any historic even where Islam stood for freedom, openness, human dignity, freedom of conscience, speech, association?


I can't. Please help.


Of course you can't - because you are willfully ignorant of basic history.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #80 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:28pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:11pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 7:03pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 1:55pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 1:23pm:
It does beg the question, though, that if the doctrine can be misconstrued on this matter, it stands to reason that Islamic doctrine may not be so very clear.


I'd be very happy if Islamic-critics ran with that line. Instead of what I have to contend with here, that Islamic doctrine is crystal clear in its evilness, oppression, anti-freedom etc etc - and thats the end of the matter. And that the best thing muslims can do is be less Islamic, or, preferably, not muslim at all.



Can you point to any historic even where Islam stood for freedom, openness, human dignity, freedom of conscience, speech, association?


I can't. Please help.


Of course you can't - because you are willfully ignorant of basic history.



You are not pointing to anything, you are just denouncing me.

In Islam that may be an argument. Outside Islam it isn't.  You have to be more than emotional here.



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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #81 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:33pm
 
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:28pm:
You are not pointing to anything, you are just denouncing me


Sorry, you may not have heard anyone mention the Islamic Golden Age. Its only mentioned in the OP video, and throughout the thread.

Would you like me to spoon-feed you some basic facts about it, or would you prefer to read up on it yourself? try google: Islamic Golden Age freedom.

Oh what the hell, here's to get you started:

Quote:
Perhaps the most significant feature of the Fatimid era were the freedoms given to the people and liberties given to the mind and reason. People could believe whatever they liked provided they did not infringe other's rights. The Fatimids reserved separate pulpits for different Islamic sects, and scholars expressed their ideas in whatever manner they pleased. The Fatimids gave patronage to scholars and invited them from every place, financially supported them, and ignored what they believed in, even when it went against Fatimid beliefs.[67][73]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Freedom_of_expression
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #82 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:41pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:33pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:28pm:
You are not pointing to anything, you are just denouncing me


Sorry, you may not have heard anyone mention the Islamic Golden Age. Its only mentioned in the OP video, and throughout the thread.

Would you like me to spoon-feed you some basic facts about it, or would you prefer to read up on it yourself? try google: Islamic Golden Age freedom.

Oh what the hell, here's to get you started:

Quote:
Perhaps the most significant feature of the Fatimid era were the freedoms given to the people and liberties given to the mind and reason. People could believe whatever they liked provided they did not infringe other's rights. The Fatimids reserved separate pulpits for different Islamic sects, and scholars expressed their ideas in whatever manner they pleased. The Fatimids gave patronage to scholars and invited them from every place, financially supported them, and ignored what they believed in, even when it went against Fatimid beliefs.[67][73]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Freedom_of_expression

16 year old Muslims are shooting Chinese police accountants in Parramatta because of the 'golden age'????



Who knows. Maybe they do. 

Otherwise I don't see the relevance of some 800 year old propaganda. Do you?


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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #83 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 9:02pm
 
Quote:
Firstly, neither Iraq or Iran or Egypt had been centres of great civilization for hundreds if not thousands of years before Islam came. The wars of the Byzantines and the Persians had largely decimated both populations and economies of the once great Mesopotamia, and it was Islam that rebuilt it. As for Egypt, it was the breadbasket of the East Roman Empire until the muslims conquered it. Yet despite its importance for the East Romans, their energy output was still lower than what the muslims produced during the caliphate. Again, this is from the Morris data.


The center of western civilisation only moved out of the area covered by the Caliphate when it was in Rome. None of this makes sense as an explanation for why the Muslims could not rebuild an even better empire. It is not like they were the Aztecs stuck on the other side of the world, not even aware of what came before. The center of western civilisation had moved around plenty of times before, and the Caliphate covered all of them except Rome. The Muslims either had it all, or it was right on their doorstep.†

Quote:
And no, the places the muslims conquered didn't include the heart of the previous Roman Empire


Did I say they captured Rome? And so what? The Muslims depopulated a lot of the Italian coastline catching slaves. Was there something special about the geographic location of Rome that prevented the Muslims from making something better out of an even bigger empire that happened to exclude it?

Are you arguing that Muslims are only capable of having advanced civilisation if they take it from someone else? Did inheriting the fragments of the old Roman Empire somehow condemn the Muslims to 1400 years of stagnation? Why were the Muslims unable to repeat the feats of empires that came previously, that existed at the same time in the east, or that came later, other than imposing themselves on people?
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #84 - Apr 26th, 2016 at 6:38am
 
There's something ironic about the argument against Islam and its deleterious effect on 'enlightened' empires (i.e. the Roman Empire).

Edward Gibbon and Voltaire before him (among others) name Christianity as a major contributor to the fall of the Roman Empire (after all the Caesars were initially implacable enemies of Christianity).

    As Christianity advances, disasters befall the [Roman] empireóarts, science, literature, decayóbarbarism ...

    As the happiness of a future life is the great object of religion, we may hear without surprise or scandal that the introduction, or at least the abuse of Christianity, had some influence on the decline and fall of the Roman empire.

In any event, Christianity's hold on European Princes brought on the (so called) Dark Ages, that only ended with the 'Renaissance'. Its protagonists needed to exercise considerable political power and cunning so as to resist the Catholic Church in its initial attempts to quash this rebirth.

As a result of this secular movement, the great minds of Europe ultimately rediscovered Europe's lost history of its philosophical and scientific thought through the multitudes of manuscripts held by Islamic scholars - those manuscripts having survived the Dark Ages.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #85 - Apr 26th, 2016 at 8:12am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 26th, 2016 at 6:38am:
There's something ironic about the argument against Islam and its deleterious effect on 'enlightened' empires (i.e. the Roman Empire).

Edward Gibbon and Voltaire before him (among others) name Christianity as a major contributor to the fall of the Roman Empire (after all the Caesars were initially implacable enemies of Christianity).

    As Christianity advances, disasters befall the [Roman] empireóarts, science, literature, decayóbarbarism ...

    As the happiness of a future life is the great object of religion, we may hear without surprise or scandal that the introduction, or at least the abuse of Christianity, had some influence on the decline and fall of the Roman empire.

In any event, Christianity's hold on European Princes brought on the (so called) Dark Ages, that only ended with the 'Renaissance'. Its protagonists needed to exercise considerable political power and cunning so as to resist the Catholic Church in its initial attempts to quash this rebirth.

As a result of this secular movement, the great minds of Europe ultimately rediscovered Europe's lost history of its philosophical and scientific thought through the multitudes of manuscripts held by Islamic scholars - those manuscripts having survived the Dark Ages.


Cool history lesson.

So what do you feel is the cause of the stagnation for the last 300 years or so, and what can be done to turn things around?
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #86 - Apr 26th, 2016 at 9:59am
 
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:41pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:33pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:28pm:
You are not pointing to anything, you are just denouncing me


Sorry, you may not have heard anyone mention the Islamic Golden Age. Its only mentioned in the OP video, and throughout the thread.

Would you like me to spoon-feed you some basic facts about it, or would you prefer to read up on it yourself? try google: Islamic Golden Age freedom.

Oh what the hell, here's to get you started:

Quote:
Perhaps the most significant feature of the Fatimid era were the freedoms given to the people and liberties given to the mind and reason. People could believe whatever they liked provided they did not infringe other's rights. The Fatimids reserved separate pulpits for different Islamic sects, and scholars expressed their ideas in whatever manner they pleased. The Fatimids gave patronage to scholars and invited them from every place, financially supported them, and ignored what they believed in, even when it went against Fatimid beliefs.[67][73]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Freedom_of_expression

16 year old Muslims are shooting Chinese police accountants in Parramatta because of the 'golden age'????



Who knows. Maybe they do.†

Otherwise I don't see the relevance of some 800 year old propaganda. Do you?




cultists do.

esp those that follow a paedophile and kill if anyone says that.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #87 - Apr 26th, 2016 at 12:48pm
 
The erosion of Rome's power can be attributed to the erosion of the relatively inclusive political institutions that spurred its dramatic rise. The same can be seen in the rise and fall of the Venetian city-state. While the 'fall' hasn't happened, the same influence can be seen in the footprint of the French empire on continental Europe and much of the British empire's footprint.

Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world. Europe was the exception. The same success that caused Europeans to be slave owners in the new world is also what lead to the eventual eradication of slavery. Slavery was a symptom of their success, not a cause, as some would argue, which is why their success only increased with the eradication of slavery.

Without this key absence of slavery, the labour market changes that preceeded the industrial revolution would not have happened. The increased value of labour that followed plagues and the introduction of industrialisation would have been kept by the slave owners rather than passed on to the labourers and a key driver for the economic success of the relatively free-er norther European countries would have been lost. This is in fact what happened further east.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #88 - Apr 26th, 2016 at 9:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 26th, 2016 at 12:48pm:
Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world.

Yes, slavery is redundant when a class system creates its own unique brand of slavery - serfdom...

Australia (or should I say the British in Australia) exploited its own unique brand of slavery... Convicts.

Its modern, 'democratic' incarnation? Illegal immigrants!

As Barry Humphreys had Dame Edna quip, "Illegal immigration... Democracy's answer to slavery".

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #89 - Apr 26th, 2016 at 9:13pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 26th, 2016 at 9:59am:
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:41pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:33pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 25th, 2016 at 8:28pm:
You are not pointing to anything, you are just denouncing me


Sorry, you may not have heard anyone mention the Islamic Golden Age. Its only mentioned in the OP video, and throughout the thread.

Would you like me to spoon-feed you some basic facts about it, or would you prefer to read up on it yourself? try google: Islamic Golden Age freedom.

Oh what the hell, here's to get you started:

Quote:
Perhaps the most significant feature of the Fatimid era were the freedoms given to the people and liberties given to the mind and reason. People could believe whatever they liked provided they did not infringe other's rights. The Fatimids reserved separate pulpits for different Islamic sects, and scholars expressed their ideas in whatever manner they pleased. The Fatimids gave patronage to scholars and invited them from every place, financially supported them, and ignored what they believed in, even when it went against Fatimid beliefs.[67][73]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Freedom_of_expression

16 year old Muslims are shooting Chinese police accountants in Parramatta because of the 'golden age'????



Who knows. Maybe they do.†

Otherwise I don't see the relevance of some 800 year old propaganda. Do you?




cultists do.

esp those that follow a paedophile and kill if anyone says that.


Christians? Jews?

Youíre right there, Sprint. I wouldnít want Jehova on my case either.

Lucky we believe in the Son of a virgin child bride, eh?
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