Australian Politics Forum - Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam

polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #45 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 11:51am

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 11:26am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24^th, 2016 at 2:36pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 24^th, 2016 at 12:09pm:

Would Gandalf suggest that brief magical 300 year period was the true Islam and the 1000 plus years of intellectual barrenness is the aberration?

Absolutely - and 300 years is a bit unfair. The best years consisted of 500 years at least - and even after that, many great scientific works by muslims continued such as in astronomy.

For comparison, Christiandom was an intellectual wasteland for around 1000 years

Gandalf would you mind highlighting that 500 year period on this timeline of human development in the east and west?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/why_the_west_rules_fig_3_7.png

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1404336014

How about rattling off what you think are the dozen most significant scientific contributions by Muslims in this period, so that we may be impressed by their genius?

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24^th, 2016 at 2:48pm:

... wrote on Apr 24^th, 2016 at 11:42am:

The "islamic" golden age is once again, not quite accurate. More specifically, it was a Persian golden age. Almost all great "islamic" scholars were persians, who were absorbed into islam rather than produced by it.

Others have made the argument that it was in fact principally led by Syrian christians and/or jews - to which I make the same response. Even if it were true (which its not), then you have to acknowledge that this Persian golden age didn't begin until Islam came along. So why couldn't these great Persians create this unprecedented scientific flowering when they were free and unoccupied? You simply can't get past the fact that Islam not only allowed, but actively enabled such a scientific surge. You really don't want to get into the contortions FD has to get into to argue the opposite. Its not pretty I can assure you.

Would you describe the absence of historically significant social, economic and scientific advances as a "contortion"?

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24^th, 2016 at 4:24pm:

... wrote on Apr 24^th, 2016 at 4:01pm:

Why couldn't the japanese reach the cutting edge of electronics until after they had nukes dropped on them?

something to do with the billions in US aid and opening their markets up to the west and installing democracy that encouraged innovation etc?

Is your point that great people don't do great things until a great power comes in and creates the right political and cultural climate for them to flourish? You know what - I agree!

What did the Muslims do with their great power Gandalf? Create an empire of inbreds?

My you do have a bee in your bonnet about this don't you.

Maybe you should take it up with deGrasse - he seems to have swallowed this outrageous lie too.

Why so insecure about identifying scientific greatness anyway? It was hundreds of years ago, isn't it enough to ridicule muslims for their stagnation since then?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #46 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:08pm

Quote:

Why so insecure about identifying scientific greatness anyway?

Good point. Why stop at a dozen? Lets see your list of the 20 most significant scientific contributions by Muslims during the period. I apologise for trying to hold you back.

Quote:

It was hundreds of years ago, isn't it enough to ridicule muslims for their stagnation since then?

It looks like stagnation from the beginning. Muslims have had 1400 years of history, standing on the shoulders of giants, and produced an empire of inbred midgets.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95479 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #47 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:17pm freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 11:44am: See the link immediately below the graph. A link to your own thread - without the graph. A mistake, was it?
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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #48 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:19pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:08pm:

Quote:

Why so insecure about identifying scientific greatness anyway?

Good point. Why stop at a dozen? Lets see your list of the 20 most significant scientific contributions by Muslims during the period. I apologise for trying to hold you back.

Quote:

It was hundreds of years ago, isn't it enough to ridicule muslims for their stagnation since then?

It looks like stagnation from the beginning. Muslims have had 1400 years of history, standing on the shoulders of giants, and produced an empire of inbred midgets.

And just think, friends- all this came from Abu.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48874 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #49 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:20pm The graph is in the first post in that thread Karnal.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95479 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #50 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:23pm freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:20pm: The graph is in the first post in that thread Karnal. So where did you get it from?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48874 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #51 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:28pm See the title of the other thread. For your next question, I refer you to the text of the opening post.
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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #52 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:29pm This must be karnal illustrating his point about people getting dumber.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #53 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:30pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:08pm:

It looks like stagnation from the beginning. Muslims have had 1400 years of history, standing on the shoulders of giants, and produced an empire of inbred midgets.

This is the Islamic-history version of climate change denial.

No serious scholar on the subject accepts this view of yours. You are so far out on your own here FD. And I'm not going over old territory, as I recall you spent about a month arguing how advances in mathematics don't count as scientific advances. But I'm sure you're off even as we speak digging up that old thread and making a new thread about it.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #54 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:44pm

I recall you struggled to come up with a single scientific advance, and when you did you were unable to indentify (understand) what the contribution was.

What is it that "serious scholars" disagree with me on? If you remove all the historical context and focus only on what was happening locally, you can add all the unqualified superlatives you want. Historians will wax lyrical about a tooth they dig out of the dirt. But you will not find a human development index that makes Islam's history anything more than a shadow of what came before, and all the fluff about Islamic science disappears into hot air as soon as I offer you the chance to impress us by listing the contributions made by Muslims during their golden age.

No wonder you do not want to revisit it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #55 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:52pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:44pm:

you struggled to come up with a single scientific advance

I came up with dozens - but you kept shifting the goalposts to make them somehow ineligible. But go on, I know your off right now digging up the discussion to make another grudge thread that everyone will ignore.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:44pm:

If you remove all the historical context and focus only on what was happening locally, you can add all the unqualified superlatives you want. Historians will wax lyrical about a tooth they dig out of the dirt.

Good point FD. Like how we can remove all the historical context of muslims contribution to scientific advancement and wax lyrical with unqualified superlatives about inbred midgets and such. We could even throw in a meaningless graph on "social advancement" as if that somehow proves the point.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #56 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:00pm

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We could even throw in a meaningless graph on "social advancement" as if that somehow proves the point.

How is it meaningless? Do you even know what it is measuring? Can you find some serious (non Muslim) scholars using those superlatives to describe how much better the golden age was than the Roman empire that preceded it?

Quote:

I came up with dozens - but you kept shifting the goalposts to make them somehow ineligible. But go on, I know your off right now digging up the discussion to make another grudge thread that everyone will ignore.

Why are you so insecure about identifying their scientific greatness?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #57 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:11pm

I think its true to say that Christianity / Islam has allowed scientific advancement in spite of itself, not because of itself.

To this day, for example, (or at least until very recently) American 'neo-christianity' has resisted on religious grounds, blood transfusions (in the case of some), stem cell research and climate change, to name a quick three...

Anti-science is a doctrinal peculiarity evident in both Christianity and Islam.. With Christianity starting the ball rolling and plunging Europe into the Dark Ages...

Maybe Islam borrowed from its elder brother in this regard.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #58 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:11pm

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:00pm:

Can you find some serious (non Muslim) scholars using those superlatives to describe how much better the golden age was than the Roman empire that preceded it?

No, why would I? What a silly thing to expect someone to come up with. But it typifies your simplistic mindset I suppose.

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:00pm:

Why are you so insecure about identifying their scientific greatness?

Already have. Go dig up the thread, I know you will eventually. It will be fun to see again all the contortions you went into to claim how each and every one of them was somehow invalid. I particularly liked the way you made mathematical advances ineligible on the basis it somehow wasn't science.

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« Last Edit: Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:19pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #59 - Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:18pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 1:11pm:

I think its true to say that Christianity / Islam has allowed scientific advancement in spite of itself, not because of itself.

Not true of Islam. Islamic doctrine is very clear on the virtue of seeking knowledge and discoveries etc, and is widely identified as the driving force behind the advancement of science during the golden age. Its not to say Islamic doctrine can't be (mis)construed to say the opposite - which it sadly has since the golden age - but there is little dispute that what drove those early scholars, as well as the patrons of science - going right up to the Caliph - was a theological driver.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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