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Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam (Read 36108 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #15 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 2:48pm
 
... wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 11:42am:
The "islamic" golden age is once again, not quite accurate.  More specifically, it was a Persian golden age.  Almost all great "islamic" scholars were persians, who were absorbed into islam rather than produced by it. 


Others have made the argument that it was in fact principally led by Syrian christians and/or jews - to which I make the same response. Even if it were true (which its not), then you have to acknowledge that this Persian golden age didn't begin until Islam came along. So why couldn't these great Persians create this unprecedented scientific flowering when they were free and unoccupied? You simply can't get past the fact that Islam not only allowed, but actively enabled such a scientific surge. You really don't want to get into the contortions FD has to get into to argue the opposite. Its not pretty I can assure you.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #16 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:29pm
 
Quote:
Even if it were true (which its not), then you have to acknowledge that this Persian golden age didn't begin until Islam came along.


The acahaemenid empire was the worlds most advanced and enlightened empire, 1000 years before Islam.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 2:48pm:
So why couldn't these great Persians create this unprecedented scientific flowering when they were free and unoccupied?


Why didn't 10th century chinese know genetic engineering?

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« Last Edit: Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:44pm by ... »  

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #17 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:32pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 2:48pm:
[
Others have made the argument that it was in fact principally led by Syrian christians and/or jews


They could have a point.  So we've got syrians christians, jews, persians....but no arabs.  Where are all the wonderful arab moslems?
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #18 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:44pm
 
... wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:29pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 2:48pm:
So why couldn't these great Persians create this unprecedented scientific flowering when they were free and unoccupied?


Why didn't 10th century chinese know genetic engineering?



It all goes back to eugenics, doesn’t it?

Sorry - scientific racialism.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #19 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:45pm
 
Educate yourself Honky - there is a long list of great arab scientists.

Start with probably the most renowned and famous of all the golden-age scientists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #20 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:46pm
 
... wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:32pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 2:48pm:
[
Others have made the argument that it was in fact principally led by Syrian christians and/or jews


They could have a point.  So we've got syrians christians, jews, persians....but no arabs.  Where are all the wonderful arab moslems?


Too busy interbreeding with the negroid sub-races, I’m afraid.

Scientific.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #21 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:50pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:45pm:
Educate yourself Honky


He’s already tried that.- you could safely say it wasn’t exactly a resounding success.

Honky’s settled on educating us.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #22 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:52pm
 
... wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:29pm:
The acahaemenid empire was the worlds most advanced and enlightened empire, 1000 years before Islam.


1000 years eh?

So what happened after that, and why did their revival only occur after they fell to the muslims? They could have had a cultural flowering any time during that interim 1000 years - most of which they were a great and free power in their own right. Doesn't it seem funny that they could only find their intellectual feet again once they were under the yoke of the muslims? Ditto for the Syrian Christians and jews.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #23 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:55pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:45pm:
Educate yourself Honky - there is a long list of great arab scientists.

Start with probably the most renowned and famous of all the golden-age scientists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen


Sometimes known as Alhazen the Persian.

Quote:
Alhazen (965 - 1039)

Persian scientist and mathematician whose full name is Abu Ali al-Hasan ibn al-Hasan ibn al-Haytham, was considered the father of modern optics. In mathematics he may have been the first to find a formula for the sum of the first 100 numbers, which he proved using geometry. He developed analytic geometry to provide a link between algebra and geometry. Alhazen was the first to attempt to prove Euclid’s parallel postulate. He attempted to square the circle and worked on perfect numbers in number theory.


Quote:
Abū ʿAlī al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn al-Haytham (Arabic: أبو علي الحسن بن الحسن بن الهيثم, Latinized: Alhacen or (deprecated) Alhazen) (965 – 1039), was an Arab[1] or Persian[2] Muslim polymath who made significant contributions to the principles of optics, as well as to anatomy, astronomy, engineering, mathematics, medicine, ophthalmology, philosophy, physics, psychology, visual perception, and to science in general with his introduction of the scientific method. He is sometimes called al-Basri (Arabic: البصري), after his birthplace in the city of Basra in Iraq (Mesopotamia), then ruled by the Buyid dynasty of Persia.[3]


Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Oh man.  I thought there'd be a couple of arab outliers, but it's worse than I thought.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #24 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:01pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:52pm:
... wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 3:29pm:
The acahaemenid empire was the worlds most advanced and enlightened empire, 1000 years before Islam.


1000 years eh?

So what happened after that, and why did their revival only occur after they fell to the muslims? They could have had a cultural flowering any time during that interim 1000 years - most of which they were a great and free power in their own right. Doesn't it seem funny that they could only find their intellectual feet again once they were under the yoke of the muslims? Ditto for the Syrian Christians and jews.


Because that's when the advances you now consider significant, were made.  It seems my counter-question about 10th century genetic engineers wasn't sufficient to make you think, so let's dial the absurdity up a notch:

Why couldn't the japanese reach the cutting edge of electronics until after they had nukes dropped on them?  Clearly, it was the bombs that enabled their scientific advance.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #25 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:11pm
 
Al-Haytham (Alhazen) wasn't a Persian - I don't know where you got your information from Honk.

Quote:
Abū ʿAlī al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn al-Haytham (Arabic: أبو علي، الحسن بن الحسن بن الهيثم‎; c. 965 – c. 1040 ce), also known by the Latinization Alhazen or Alhacen,[9] was an Arab[10][11] scientist,[12] mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher.[13] Ibn al-Haytham made significant contributions to the principles of optics, astronomy, mathematics, meteorology, visual perception and the scientific method.[14] He spent most of his life close to the court of the Fatimid Caliphate in Cairo and earned his living authoring various treatises and tutoring members of the nobilities.[15]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #26 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:11pm
 
Al-Ghazali has been referred to by some historians as the single most influential Muslim after the Islamic prophet Muhammad

PERSIAN


Avicenna was a Persian polymath who is regarded as one of the most significant thinkers and writers of the Islamic Golden Age.[5]

PERSIAN

Sibawayh was an influential linguist and grammarian of the Arabic language. His seminal work Al-Kitab was the first written grammar of the language.[4] Despite his significance to the development of the Arabic language and linguistic tradition, Sibawayh was an ethnic Persian and wasn't a native speaker of Arabic, having learned the language later in life. He has been referred to as the greatest of all Arabic linguists and one of the greatest linguists of all time in any language.

PERSIAN

Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī was a Persian[3] mathematician, astronomer and geographer during the Abbasid Caliphate, a scholar in the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.

In the 12th century, Latin translations of his work on the Indian numerals introduced the decimal positional number system to the Western world.[4] Al-Khwārizmī's The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing presented the first systematic solution of linear and quadratic equations in Arabic. He is often considered one of the fathers of algebra.[5][6] He revised Ptolemy's Geography and wrote on astronomy and astrology.

PERSIAN

Abū Bakr Muhammad ibn Zakariyyā al-Rāzī was a Persian[3][4] polymath, physician, alchemist, philosopher, and important figure in the history of medicine.

PERSIAN

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #27 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:18pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:11pm:
Al-Haytham (Alhazen) wasn't a Persian - I don't know where you got your information from Honk.

Quote:
Abū ʿAlī al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn al-Haytham (Arabic: أبو علي، الحسن بن الحسن بن الهيثم‎; c. 965 – c. 1040 ce), also known by the Latinization Alhazen or Alhacen,[9] was an Arab[10][11] scientist,[12] mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher.[13] Ibn al-Haytham made significant contributions to the principles of optics, astronomy, mathematics, meteorology, visual perception and the scientific method.[14] He spent most of his life close to the court of the Fatimid Caliphate in Cairo and earned his living authoring various treatises and tutoring members of the nobilities.[15]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen


Wikipedia is the only source that says he's an arab.  You may have seen on one of my links:

Quote:
was an Arab[1] or Persian[2] Muslim polymath


You can swear that he's arab until you're blue in the face if you really need to, but there is no dispute his birthplace is in Persia, and no way to prove his arabianity(?).  The fact that it's hard to find even one unequivocally arab scientist illustrates my point better than I could hope to.

What have you got against Persians?  I thought you'd be grateful to them - they're the only ones giving this silly Islam thing any capital at all.
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #28 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:24pm
 
... wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:01pm:
Why couldn't the japanese reach the cutting edge of electronics until after they had nukes dropped on them?


something to do with the billions in US aid and opening their markets up to the west and installing democracy that encouraged innovation etc?

Is your point that great people don't do great things until a great power comes in and creates the right political and cultural climate for them to flourish? You know what - I agree!
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #29 - Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:27pm
 
... wrote on Apr 24th, 2016 at 4:18pm:
Wikipedia is the only source that says he's an arab.


Incorrect. The wiki article provides two additional sources for the claim. Also, Britannica:

Quote:
Ibn al-Haytham 
Arab astronomer and mathematician


http://www.britannica.com/biography/Ibn-al-Haytham
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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