Australian Politics Forum - Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam

freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #195 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:31pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:14pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:07pm:

That was not my intention. For the specific part you quote, refer to my argument that only a small difference was necessary to gain an advantage of their competitors. This is to counter Gandalf's and Karnal's (and yours?) implicit argument that freedom and democracy could not possibly be the ultimate cause of their wealth and power because they got rich and powerful before they became a liberal democracy.

OK, enlightenment thinkers certainly took issue with monarchical absolutism and proposed alternatives... But I'm not sure they had 'liberal democracy' in mind. Even their versions were elitist.

I do not claim they had liberal democracy in mind. They did not even know what it was. Perhaps that is why it took them so long to get there.

There is an "end" in the sense of Acemoglu's theory - that these things are self reinforcing and thus societies drift to the extremes.

Quote:

By what measure? Over the last 150 years or the last thousand?

Civilisation (in the form of a stable government and a political border) first reached western Europe via the Roman Empire a bit over 2000 years ago. For places further east like Germany, it was after the collapse of the Roman Empire - a bit over 1000 years ago. Not sure exactly when.

In contrast, the original centres of western civilisation have had it for about 10 millenia. I think that many of those places have never experienced liberal democracy.

Of course, given the right conditions and with a bit of prodding, countries can do it a lot faster these days, like South Korea did.

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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 96043 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #196 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:35pm freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 9:55pm: Que Sera, Sera Whatever will be, will be The future's not ours, to see Interesting. You're even evading about answering a question. Do you have something to hide?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #197 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:37pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:31pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:14pm:

[quote]By what measure? Over the last 150 years or the last thousand?

Civilisation (in the form of a stable government and a political border) first reached western Europe via the Roman Empire a bit over 2000 years ago. For places further east like Germany, it was after the collapse of the Roman Empire - a bit over 1000 years ago. Not sure exactly when.

And the last 2000 years defines 'rapidly' ?

Revisionism is one thing and hindsight is a fine thing... but presuming the last 2000 years was an inevitable march with liberal democracy in mind is one hell of a stretchy thing!

Be careful that rubber band doesn't snap and hit you in the eye!

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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #198 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:38pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:31pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:14pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:07pm:

That was not my intention. For the specific part you quote, refer to my argument that only a small difference was necessary to gain an advantage of their competitors. This is to counter Gandalf's and Karnal's (and yours?) implicit argument that freedom and democracy could not possibly be the ultimate cause of their wealth and power because they got rich and powerful before they became a liberal democracy.

OK, enlightenment thinkers certainly took issue with monarchical absolutism and proposed alternatives... But I'm not sure they had 'liberal democracy' in mind. Even their versions were elitist.

I do not claim they had liberal democracy in mind. They did not even know what it was. Perhaps that is why it took them so long to get there.

There is an "end" in the sense of Acemoglu's theory - that these things are self reinforcing and thus societies drift to the extremes.

Quote:

By what measure? Over the last 150 years or the last thousand?

Civilisation (in the form of a stable government and a political border) first reached western Europe via the Roman Empire a bit over 2000 years ago. For places further east like Germany, it was after the collapse of the Roman Empire - a bit over 1000 years ago. Not sure exactly when.

In contrast, the original centres of western civilisation have had it for about 10 millenia. I think that many of those places have never experienced liberal democracy.

Of course, given the right conditions and with a bit of prodding, countries can do it a lot faster these days, like South Korea did.

Not to mention Iraq.

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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #199 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:41pm

Quote:

And the last 2000 years defines 'rapidly' ?

I would call it rapid, given the 10000 years it took western civilisation to get to that stage (and Europe had not even started down that path yet).

Quote:

Revisionism is one thing and hindsight is a fine thing... but presuming the last 2000 years was an inevitable march with liberal democracy in mind is one hell of a stretchy thing!

Where did I say it was inevitable? Did you miss the bit where I just said they did not have anything in mind? Does describing it as rapid not suggest it was not inevitable?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49147 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #200 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:44pm There is some degree of inevitability, which is demonstrated by the frequent parallel developments in science, engineering and politics. But you only see those when you look at the small steps, not the whole path.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #201 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:47pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:41pm:

Quote:

And the last 2000 years defines 'rapidly' ?

I would call it rapid, given the 10000 years it took western civilisation to get to that stage (and Europe had not even started down that path yet).

Really? In human (as opposed to geological) terms you would call 2000 years rapid?

How will society look in 4016? Should be easy to divine for anyone whose measuring stick of rapid is 2000 years.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #202 - Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:56pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 10:44pm:

There is some degree of inevitability, which is demonstrated by the frequent parallel developments in science, engineering and politics. But you only see those when you look at the small steps, not the whole path.

Doesn't account for the sudden halt in Chinese culture 400 years ago... Who could have predicted that? Or that the Chinese would have all but forgotten their cultural superiority in less than 200 years.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49147 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #203 - May 1^st, 2016 at 8:32am Parallel development had nothing to do with the decline in China. That had entirely different causes.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #204 - May 1^st, 2016 at 9:58am

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/heavy-legacies-our-past.html#slavery

It has become popular among socialists and other groups with an axe to grind against capitalism, economic freedom, democracy or even white people in general, to insist that the rise of western Europe and its colonies is a result of slavery.

Not quite true. Exploitation in general would be more accurate. Though of course actual slavery was a key component for several centuries.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49147 At my desk.	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #205 - May 1^st, 2016 at 10:25am What is it that set western Europe apart Gandalf? Did they become richer and more powerful because they were more exploitative, or less?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #206 - May 1^st, 2016 at 11:25am

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2016 at 8:32am:

Parallel development had nothing to do with the decline in China. That had entirely different causes.

Yes, no doubt...

An easy trot of an ascent to the pinnacle of cultural and scientific advancement (4000 years)...

A canter towards a Chinese golden age (as predicted by the Chinese historian, futurist and Crab Cream cook, Fug Yu) - 3000 years...

A gallop to the horizon (500 years).

A screaming bolt into the promised land... Oops... Well it looked like a horizon during the epochs of canter and gallop... Turns out it was a cliff...

So, over they go, Fug Yu...

A slow and steady climb out of canyon... Dead horse of history previously cooked and eaten with Crab cream sauce. (500 years).

Buy new history horse at bargain basement price after crash and burn of Soviet Union from Mongolian futurist and Yak balls soup cook - Getdis Downya - 1 day.

Back on top and on new horse with descendant of Fug Yu, Fug Yu Tu and now telling west where to go (25 years).

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #207 - May 1^st, 2016 at 12:03pm freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2016 at 10:25am: What is it that set western Europe apart Gandalf? Did they become richer and more powerful because they were more exploitative, or less? Exploitation expanded to an unprecedented level under western imperialism. You can't deny that.
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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 96043 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #208 - May 1^st, 2016 at 12:28pm freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2016 at 8:32am: Parallel development had nothing to do with the decline in China. That had entirely different causes. Interbreeding with superior white genes? A plausible theory.
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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #209 - May 1^st, 2016 at 12:36pm

North, do you have a point?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 1^st, 2016 at 12:03pm:

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2016 at 10:25am:

What is it that set western Europe apart Gandalf? Did they become richer and more powerful because they were more exploitative, or less?

Exploitation expanded to an unprecedented level under western imperialism. You can't deny that.

Everything expanded to an unprecedented level. Can you tell what is the cause and what is the symptom?

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