Australian Politics Forum - Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%

freediver

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #120 - Yesterday at 12:17pm

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 12:11pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 8:23am:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:55am:

FD,
I think you're the one getting a bit emotional -
the days are long gone when scabs were beaten up.
Unions have to obey the law now.

They always had to obey the law Bobby. They just drank their own koolaid and decided the cause was more important - another reason why the government had to crack down on them.

I'm glad you had a little chuckle.

So you now agree that unions obey the law?

No. They do whatever they think they can get away with. They have always seen themselves as above the law. I see no indication that the culture within the union movement has changed. They are merely responding to the efforts the government is going to to bring them into line, and the loss of public faith that is reflected in several generations of declining membership.

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Bobby.

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #121 - Yesterday at 12:22pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:17pm:

No. They do whatever they think they can get away with. They have always seen themselves as above the law. I see no indication that the culture within the union movement has changed. They are merely responding to the efforts the government is going to to bring them into line, and the loss of public faith that is reflected in several generations of declining membership.

Fair enough -
by the way - I haven't been in a union for over 30 years -
I always felt that I could handle my own negotiations better than any union -
however most workers are unable to do so due to low IQs -
so they need a union.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53079 At my desk.	Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6% Reply #122 - Yesterday at 12:27pm Would you like to rethink your claim that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment?
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 119855 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6% Reply #123 - Yesterday at 12:44pm freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:27pm: Would you like to rethink your claim that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment? No as I've already dealt with that - the major causes of unemployment are: high Govt taxes and poor management by companies that put MBA dickheads in charge.
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freediver

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #124 - Yesterday at 12:47pm

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 12:44pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:27pm:

Would you like to rethink your claim that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment?

No as I've already dealt with that -
the major causes of unemployment are:

high Govt taxes and

poor management by companies that put MBA dickheads in charge.

Are you saying you have already conceded you were wrong, or that you have already attempted to change the subject?

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Bobby.

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #125 - Yesterday at 12:52pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:47pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 12:44pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:27pm:

Would you like to rethink your claim that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment?

No as I've already dealt with that -
the major causes of unemployment are:

high Govt taxes and

poor management by companies that put MBA dickheads in charge.

Are you saying you have already conceded you were wrong, or that you have already attempted to change the subject?

I'm not wrong - I just see the big picture.

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freediver

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #126 - Yesterday at 12:57pm

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:47pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 12:44pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:27pm:

Would you like to rethink your claim that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment?

No as I've already dealt with that -
the major causes of unemployment are:

high Govt taxes and

poor management by companies that put MBA dickheads in charge.

Are you saying you have already conceded you were wrong, or that you have already attempted to change the subject?

I'm not wrong - I just see the big picture.

I tried to explain to you why you were wrong. You said it was too confusing for you to understand. Can you perhaps explain your logic? How do tax rates alter the facts of whether unions cause unemployment?

Or when you talk about the "bigger picture", are you doing the union trick of saying the cause justifies whatever lies are convenient in the moment?

And why, when I asked you about it later on, did you change tactics and say you were speaking "from the heart" rather than speaking the truth?

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Bobby.

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #127 - Yesterday at 2:09pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:57pm:

I tried to explain to you why you were wrong. You said it was too confusing for you to understand. Can you perhaps explain your logic? How do tax rates alter the facts of whether unions cause unemployment?

Or when you talk about the "bigger picture", are you doing the union trick of saying the cause justifies whatever lies are convenient in the moment?

And why, when I asked you about it later on, did you change tactics and say you were speaking "from the heart" rather than speaking the truth?

High tax rates close down businesses more than unions.

The big picture is about more than just unions.

I can walk and chew gum at the same time -
I can have a logical argument and also speak from the heart.

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #128 - Yesterday at 2:16pm

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 2:09pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 12:57pm:

I tried to explain to you why you were wrong. You said it was too confusing for you to understand. Can you perhaps explain your logic? How do tax rates alter the facts of whether unions cause unemployment?

Or when you talk about the "bigger picture", are you doing the union trick of saying the cause justifies whatever lies are convenient in the moment?

And why, when I asked you about it later on, did you change tactics and say you were speaking "from the heart" rather than speaking the truth?

High tax rates close down businesses more than unions.

The big picture is about more than just unions.

I can walk and chew gum at the same time -
I can have a logical argument and also speak from the heart.

So when I ask you what your logical argument is, why can you only tell me that you speak from the heart?

How do taxes change the facts of whether unions increase unemployment?

Are you still confused about whether I am saying that unions are the only cause of unemployment? We have been over that Bobby.

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Bobby.

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #129 - Yesterday at 2:28pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 2:16pm:

So when I ask you what your logical argument is, why can you only tell me that you speak from the heart?

How do taxes change the facts of whether unions increase unemployment?

Are you still confused about whether I am saying that unions are the only cause of unemployment? We have been over that Bobby.

I just told you I have made a logical, cogent, coherent argument -
occasionally I just speak from the heart too - don't get too pedantic about it.

Do you agree that unions have only caused a small number of closed businesses
and most of the time it was excessive Govt. taxes and MBA dickheads that closed them down?
Can you justify even one tax - payroll tax?
I'm curious.

You do confuse me a bit -
my arguments seem so clear to me.

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freediver

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #130 - Yesterday at 2:35pm

Quote:

Do you agree that unions have only caused a small number of closed businesses
and most of the time it was excessive Govt. taxes and MBA dickheads that closed them down?

No.

I also think it is irrelevant.

Bobby, I suspect you are still confused about what I am saying. I am not saying that unions are the only cause of unemployment. Therefor, identifying other causes of unemployment is irrelevant. It does not make a rational counterargument. Unions still cause unemployment, whether they cause 0.01% of unemployment or 99.9% of unemployment. I have explained this several times to you. Do you understand it, or is it still too confusing to you, and you are just repeating yourself because you don't know what else to do?

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Bobby.

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #131 - Yesterday at 8:39pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 2:35pm:

Quote:

Do you agree that unions have only caused a small number of closed businesses
and most of the time it was excessive Govt. taxes and MBA dickheads that closed them down?

No.

I also think it is irrelevant.

Bobby, I suspect you are still confused about what I am saying. I am not saying that unions are the only cause of unemployment. Therefor, identifying other causes of unemployment is irrelevant. It does not make a rational counterargument. Unions still cause unemployment, whether they cause 0.01% of unemployment or 99.9% of unemployment. I have explained this several times to you. Do you understand it, or is it still too confusing to you, and you are just repeating yourself because you don't know what else to do?

It's relevant - can you name any companies that have closed down because of unions?
How many people have lost their jobs because of unions?

At least I rolled out the example of Philips for you.
I backed up what I said with some facts -
I deserve some brownie points for that don't I?

The days of the 1970s when unions brought the UK to its knees and
the waterfront trouble here in 1998 when Peter Reith was the IR minister have long gone.

Google AI:

The 1998 Australian waterfront dispute, a pivotal industrial conflict during
Peter Reith’s tenure as Minister for Industrial Relations,
resulted in the dismissal of over 1,400 unionized workers by Patrick Stevedores,
who replaced them with a non-union workforce.

Although the Maritime Union of Australia (MUA) retained its presence on the waterfront, the dispute led to significant productivity reforms, including reduced redundancy packages, increased casualization, and the end of compulsory unionism, which fundamentally transformed Australia’s industrial relations landscape.

Reith’s handling of the crisis, which involved the controversial use of balaclava-clad security guards and an initial failed attempt to import trained personnel from Dubai, was defended by former Prime Minister John Howard as necessary for modernizing the inefficient port sector. Critics, including the International Transport Workers' Federation, argued the government conspired to break union power, a claim supported by later-released cabinet documents showing strategic planning to manage confrontation with the MUA. The conflict remains one of the most significant and contentious events in Australian labor history, marking a decisive shift toward employer-centric workplace laws.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53079 At my desk.	Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6% Reply #132 - Yesterday at 8:59pm Quote: I deserve some brownie points for that don't I? No Bobby. What point is there in presenting facts if you do not have a rational, coherent argument to back up? Let's try again. Why do you insist that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment.
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Bobby.

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #133 - Yesterday at 9:03pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 8:59pm:

Quote:

I deserve some brownie points for that don't I?

No Bobby. What point is there in presenting facts if you do not have a rational, coherent argument to back up? Let's try again.

Why do you insist that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment.

Because it's true -
are you saying that unions always cause unemployment?

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freediver

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Re: Unions Increase Minimum Wage Claim To 6%
Reply #134 - Today at 7:32am

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 9:03pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 8:59pm:

Quote:

I deserve some brownie points for that don't I?

No Bobby. What point is there in presenting facts if you do not have a rational, coherent argument to back up? Let's try again.

Why do you insist that unions "only sometimes" cause unemployment.

Because it's true -
are you saying that unions always cause unemployment?

To the extent that they raise salaries above market value they do. Not sure if unions always manage to achieve that. I certainly wouldn't take their word for it.

Quote:

Because it's true

Do you understand that this is not a rational argument Bobby? It does not even add meaning to your statement. For all I know you could still be utterly confused about what you are disagreeing with.

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