Australian Politics Forum - the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'

freediver

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the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:20pm

Some of the strange things they believe:

You can't store electricity:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 12:41pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 10:47am:

Reality check: Wind and solar already cost less than half the price of coal power, and a third that of nuclear. And the gap is rapidly widening. Even with storage it is still cheaper.

What storage Roll Eyes

Renewable energy has a greater environmental cost than fossil fuels:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:05pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:54pm:

The fact that wind and solar are cheaper than coal and nuclear by more than a factor of 2 and 3 is based on the actual costs and amounts generated.

As long as you disregard environmental costs. Less than 0.1 acre per MW of natural gas plant, 5.79 acres per MW of solar panels. Wink

.

Cost comparisons of renewables and fossil fuels ignore capacity factor:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:54pm:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:45pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:34pm:

I am not the one looking for something wo whine about when wind and solar cost less than half the price of coal, and less than a third the price of nuclear, and we are putting in a second main trunk to Tasmania so we can take advantage of their cheap, despatchable hydro as well.

And when solar and wind give about 25% capacity factor. Wink

This has also been explained to you. Many times. The fact that wind and solar are cheaper than coal and nuclear by more than a factor of 2 and 3 is based on the actual costs and amounts generated.

Imaginary content on ABC articles:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:30pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:12pm:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:11pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:04pm:

That's not an accounting trick Scoot. That's sharing the power lines.

Incorrect, they build a solar farm in qld, pump power into the grid at midday when we already have too much, then pay to suck back on fossil fuels at night and declare they are 100 % renewable.

Accounting trick.

If it's not, let's see them disconnect from the grid Cheesy

That's not what your copy and paste job says. Did you read it?

Certainly did.

It said they are connected to the grid so that at night they can use all those lovely electrons created by fossil fuels in other states

Tasmania is a net electricity importer:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:09pm:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:04pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 3:59pm:

Low prices indicate an oversupply. They kind of went overboard a while back when every premier wanted a dam named after him.

So overboard they had to import.

Tasmania is a net electricity exporter, but it works both ways. When electricity is cheaper on the mainland due to renewable energy being so cheap (less than half the price of coal, 1/3 the price of nuclear), they import. Sometimes the east coast electricity price goes negative and we actually pay the Tasmanians to take our electricity. Then when there is high demand on the east coast pushing prices up, Tasmania runs the hydro plants and exports more renewable energy.

The wonders of the free market. All that cheap renewable electricity getting shared around. It must make your blood boil, having to search so hard for something to whine about.

Only snowy 2 is capable of using electricity generated by snowy2 to charge lithium batteries:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 3:03pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 2:28pm:

You did not understand the point - that you can charge batteries from stored hydro power.

But Snowy2 has explicitly said they will not do that.

If you can't complain about wind and solar being less than half the price of coal and a third the price of nuclear, and still cheaper even when the price of storage is taken into account, invent a new problem that saving all this money will reduce the amount supplied:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:04pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 3:59pm:

But there is nothing stopping anyone else with connected lithium battery storage from using it on an intra-day basis while snowy 2 is running.

Ah adding another layer of electricity use into the mix. Down, down the projected take off goes up means the amount of supply goes down. Roll Eyes

Or this furphy - whining that while you are charging batteries and pumped hydro stations with free electricity due to an oversupply from wind and solar, that power is not available to the grid:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 3:03pm:

"It will provide flexible, on-demand power while reusing or ‘recycling’ the water in a closed loop and maximise the efficiency of renewables by using excess solar and wind energy to pump water to the higher dam, to be stored for later use."

But then of course if they did do that. that is electricity not available to the grid out of that 1.76 days. Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Reply #1 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:23pm

Solar panels do not work during the day because it is dark (not even for charging batteries at midday to use later):

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 1:42pm:

Charging batteries for intraday fluctuations? Not happening in a dunkelflate. Roll Eyes

Net zero by 20250 means abandoning fossil fuels now:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 6:13pm:

Take fossil fuels away now and your standard of living will nosedive.

(it does not even mean abandoning fossil fuels by 2050)

It is not possible to store solar power generated during the day to use at night:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 8^th, 2026 at 8:03pm:

Now explain how I can store all that solar energy so I can use it at night , recharge my cars at night when I aren't using them

You can't.

Getting even more hysterical:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 8^th, 2026 at 8:03pm:

Unless you want to mine the whole planet to make batteries.

Without a breakthrough in power storage,, we will be reliant on fossil fuels or nuclear to power the world after 6 pm,

Calls to end coal now are on the news every second day:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2026 at 8:08pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2026 at 5:34pm:

Quote:

I am not the one holding up signs of 'end coal NOW'

But that is the fantasy you choose to address instead of reality.

Not a fantasy. On the news every other day.

Getting even more hysterical now - something about a link between renewables and slaughtering Jews:

Frank wrote on Mar 8^th, 2026 at 8:08pm:

Are you pushing the idiotic line that we must not take the Gretas, the Mohammeds, the Ayatollas and Abdel Fatahs at their word??

What is the korrekt translation of 'just end oil'? or 'death to Amerikkka'? or 'where's the Jews'?

Chris Bowen wants to ened fossil fuels now:

lee wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 8:21pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 8:07pm:

Lee, no one other than Frank was suggesting we abandon fossil fuels now. T

maybe you should check on Blackout Bowen. Wink

You can't make renewable energy without fossil fuels:

lee wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 8:05pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 7:48pm:

You know that net zero by 2050, or some later decade, is not the same thing as abandoning fossil fuels now. I

First of all you would need to make solar panels and wind turbines without fossil fuels.

You can't recharge electric vehicles with renewables:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 6:54pm:

They require coal or gas to be burnt at night to make the electricity to recharge them

aquascoot wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 6:54pm:

If you switch it out for a tesla or a byd it is 10 years before the carbon used to produce that car is nullified.

The additional GHG emission associated with an EV are offset within 1 to 2 years of driving. EV's have lower total emissions, including the emissions associated with manufacture.

Net zero is not possible:

Frank wrote on Mar 7^th, 2026 at 6:31pm:

No, no, no, dont tell me it's ....the mythical unicorn of 'net zero'.

A gretaesque slogan.

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« Last Edit: Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:45pm by freediver »

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 33156 Gender:	Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics' Reply #2 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:28pm You've gone fully retard on your renewables BS. Everything you claim is practically the exact opposite in truth. You & Malcolm Turdbull would mate great mates.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52794 At my desk.	Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics' Reply #3 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:29pm Quote: Everything you claim is practically the exact opposite in truth. It must be so frustrating for you to know this but not be able to produce the evidence.
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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 117866 Melbourne Gender:	Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics' Reply #4 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:44pm FD, Quote: It is not possible to store solar power generated during the day to use at night Yes it is - just used pumped hydro storage - the water is pumped uphill and released later to drive electric turbines.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52794 At my desk.	Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics' Reply #5 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:46pm Thanks Bobby. Wow, all that from just one thread. I did not realise how gullible they are until I started collecting all the quotes. And it's not like they haven't had it all explained to them plenty of times already.
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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 57233 Gender:	Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics' Reply #6 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:56pm Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:44pm: FD, Quote: It is not possible to store solar power generated during the day to use at night Yes it is - just used pumped hydro storage - the water is pumped uphill and released later to drive electric turbines. Wood, coal, oil, gas - all solar energy storage.
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freediver

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Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Reply #7 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:57pm

Another one: if Tasmania imports electricity for 7 days, that makes it a net importer:

Gnads wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:55pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:09pm:

lee wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 4:04pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 3:59pm:

Low prices indicate an oversupply. They kind of went overboard a while back when every premier wanted a dam named after him.

So overboard they had to import.

Tasmania is a net electricity exporter, but it works both ways. When electricity is cheaper on the mainland due to renewable energy being so cheap (less than half the price of coal, 1/3 the price of nuclear), they import. Sometimes the east coast electricity price goes negative and we actually pay the Tasmanians to take our electricity. Then when there is high demand on the east coast pushing prices up, Tasmania runs the hydro plants and exports more renewable energy.

The wonders of the free market. All that cheap renewable electricity getting shared around. It must make your blood boil, having to search so hard for something to whine about.

Wrong ---- a net importer for the last 7 years.

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Bobby.

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Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Reply #8 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:58pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:46pm:

Thanks Bobby.

Wow, all that from just one thread. I did not realise how gullible they are until I started collecting all the quotes. And it's not like they haven't had it all explained to them plenty of times already.

Yes - all electricity is convertible - you just need to store the energy.

In some ways we should pump sea water up from the coast and store it
inland at higher level -
then release it later when needed for power and let it flow back to the ocean.
Batteries are too small for that purpose.
In theory you could store weeks or months of cheap solar energy -
in large amounts.
The largest batteries we have only last for an hour on the National grid.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52794 At my desk.	Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics' Reply #9 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:00pm You can make a battery as big as you want Bobby. There is no limit. And for daily cycles, it is cheaper than pumped hydro. Pumped hydro has limits on dam size etc. And the environmental issues from pumping saltwater inland would be a nightmare. We have plenty of freshwater options.
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lee

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Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Reply #10 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:10pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:00pm:

You can make a battery as big as you want Bobby. There is no limit. And for daily cycles, it is cheaper than pumped hydro.

How big a battery? $125 -$334 per MWh. At what cost?

Not according to this -
Pumped LFP
USD/kW based on PSH life of 2,710 4,570
80 years and 6% discount
rate**)

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/64f9d0036cb97160cc26feba/64f9d0036cb97160cc27...

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Bobby.

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Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Reply #11 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:14pm

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:00pm:

You can make a battery as big as you want Bobby. There is no limit. And for daily cycles, it is cheaper than pumped hydro.

Pumped hydro has limits on dam size etc. And the environmental issues from pumping saltwater inland would be a nightmare. We have plenty of freshwater options.

The problem is that cheap land is not available near the ocean - and near cities
where the power is needed -
it's the most expensive land we have in Australia -
because it has milder temperatures and better rainfall for farmers -
just what is needed for growing crops or farming cattle etc.

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lee

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Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Reply #12 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:26pm

Poor FD, taking so many things out of context.
one example -

Renewable energy has a greater environmental cost than fossil fuels:

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 5:20pm:

lee wrote Today at 3:05pm:
freediver wrote Today at 2:54pm:
The fact that wind and solar are cheaper than coal and nuclear by more than a factor of 2 and 3 is based on the actual costs and amounts generated.

As long as you disregard environmental costs. Less than 0.1 acre per MW of natural gas plant, 5.79 acres per MW of solar panels. Wink.

No example given of the environmental cost of fossil fuels. Environmental costs which would have to be added to the cost of solar panels.

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Bobby.

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Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics'
Reply #13 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:55pm

Lee,
what about the cost of concrete as used in the bases of wind turbines?

Google AI:

Concrete production is highly energy-intensive, primarily driven by the cement manufacturing process, which requires heating raw materials (mainly limestone) to over 1,450°C in kilns, consuming approximately 2,775 MJ per m3.
Cement accounts for 70% of concrete's embodied energy, with production, including grinding, relying heavily on coal and natural gas.

Energy and Production Details

Total Energy Consumption: The production of
of concrete requires roughly 2,775 MJ of energy.

Embodied Energy: Concrete has an embodied energy of 1.69 GJ/tonne.

Key Driver: The, cement production process (specifically producing clinker) is the most energy-intensive part of the process, with 70% of the total energy used in concrete production attributed to the cement itself.

Thermal Energy: The kiln used to create clinker runs at temperatures exceeding 1,450°C.

Fuel Sources: The industry relies heavily on fossil fuels, with 57% of energy coming from coal and 24% from natural gas.

Electricity: The majority of electricity is used for grinding raw materials and clinker, with a typical intensity of around 100 kWh/t of cement.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20146 Gender:	Re: the gullibility of climate 'sceptics' Reply #14 - Mar 9^th, 2026 at 7:06pm Bobby. wrote on Mar 9^th, 2026 at 6:55pm: what about the cost of concrete as used in the bases of wind turbines? And replacement of them will be worse. As the turbines get bigger, the footings need to be bigger, so they can't be re-used.
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