Australian Politics Forum - al-Aqsa Mosque

Bobby.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #60 - Yesterday at 7:17pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:13pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:04pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 6:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:56pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

But Jesus is still considered one of the most important Prophets by Islamic text.

Yes. Jesus' message of strict dedication to the Torah (something like the modern Jewish ultra-Orthodox today) is aligned with Muhammad's thinking... or more accurately, Muhammad's message is aligned with Ishwa's message of devotion to god and keeping the law.

Strange how Muslims follow all the old laws of the Torah but hate Jews?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #61 - Yesterday at 7:22pm

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:13pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:04pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 6:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:56pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

But Jesus is still considered one of the most important Prophets by Islamic text.

Yes. Jesus' message of strict dedication to the Torah (something like the modern Jewish ultra-Orthodox today) is aligned with Muhammad's thinking... or more accurately, Muhammad's message is aligned with Ishwa's message of devotion to god and keeping the law.

Strange how Muslims follow all the old laws of the Torah but hate Jews?

They're in a struggle for hegemony of the Abrahamic faith... but that is not what the modern struggle is about.

Arabs see Jews in the region as European invaders, not in a religious context.

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Frank

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #62 - Yesterday at 8:04pm

6MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:22pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:13pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:04pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 6:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:56pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

But Jesus is still considered one of the most important Prophets by Islamic text.

Yes. Jesus' message of strict dedication to the Torah (something like the modern Jewish ultra-Orthodox today) is aligned with Muhammad's thinking... or more accurately, Muhammad's message is aligned with Ishwa's message of devotion to god and keeping the law.

Strange how Muslims follow all the old laws of the Torah but hate Jews?

They're in a struggle for hegemony of the Abrahamic faith... but that is not what the modern struggle is about.

Arabs see Jews in the region as European invaders, not in a religious context.

Bollocks.

YOU do.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #63 - Yesterday at 8:23pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:48pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 6:35pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:32pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 6:21pm:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

You see, this is where your arrested development identifies you as stuck at 15.

I can argue this all day... You can only repeat infantile stupid questions in the hope some other poster will take pity on you so you can go for argumentum ad populum.

It's certain that Muhammad was aware of the site of the ancient Jewish temple, its significance to the Abrahamic faith of Judaism, and its desecration by the Romans, then the Christians.

It's certain that he did not make a pilgrimage there physically, which is likely why he proposed the night flight story - to connect him with the heart of the Abrahamic faith, being third only in holiness to Mecca and Medina.

Is that your way of saying no? No references at all from when Muhammad was alive?

You see, as a 5-year-old who's never had a religious education, you're not aware that sites like the Jewish Temple and its holy of holies are well-known to those who have... even if they haven't visited it.

By Muhammad's birth, Christianity was well established, and Christian obsession with Jerusalem was well-known throughout the region...

The Temple Mount - no mosque on it, just the broken remains of the Temple, which, for a laugh, Christians would sometimes allow Jews to visit to watch them weep at the evidence of its destruction.

Muhammad would have been in no doubt that he needed a connection to this site, and it's significant that the night flight began at the site of the Kaaba - the holiest site in Islam - identical in its significance to Islam as the Temple was/is to Jews.

Are you saying Muhammad intentionally made it the third holiest site in Islam, without ever actually mentioning the location? And everyone else just knew that was the location he was talking about, without ever mentioning it? And the Muslim scholars who talked about it after his death covered it all up by only considering the possibilities of a Mosque near Mecca and somewhere in heaven?

Or are you just dribbling incoherently? It is hard to tell, given your reluctance to get round to actually saying something.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 116944 Melbourne Gender:	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #64 - Yesterday at 8:30pm FD, Quote: Are you saying Muhammad intentionally made it the third holiest site in Islam, without ever actually mentioning the location? He didn't but the followers of Islam did as it's where Mohammad ascended to heaven on a horse with wings.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52381 At my desk.	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #65 - Yesterday at 8:47pm Muhammad never claimed to have ascended to heave from a site in Jerusalem. That's not why declared the site to be in Jerusalem. They did it for political reasons, long after Muhammad's death, so one of the competing Caliphs in a civil war could claim to have built the third holiest Mosque in Islam.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #66 - Yesterday at 8:48pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 8:23pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:48pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 6:35pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:32pm:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 6:21pm:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

You see, this is where your arrested development identifies you as stuck at 15.

I can argue this all day... You can only repeat infantile stupid questions in the hope some other poster will take pity on you so you can go for argumentum ad populum.

It's certain that Muhammad was aware of the site of the ancient Jewish temple, its significance to the Abrahamic faith of Judaism, and its desecration by the Romans, then the Christians.

It's certain that he did not make a pilgrimage there physically, which is likely why he proposed the night flight story - to connect him with the heart of the Abrahamic faith, being third only in holiness to Mecca and Medina.

Is that your way of saying no? No references at all from when Muhammad was alive?

You see, as a 5-year-old who's never had a religious education, you're not aware that sites like the Jewish Temple and its holy of holies are well-known to those who have... even if they haven't visited it.

By Muhammad's birth, Christianity was well established, and Christian obsession with Jerusalem was well-known throughout the region...

The Temple Mount - no mosque on it, just the broken remains of the Temple, which, for a laugh, Christians would sometimes allow Jews to visit to watch them weep at the evidence of its destruction.

Muhammad would have been in no doubt that he needed a connection to this site, and it's significant that the night flight began at the site of the Kaaba - the holiest site in Islam - identical in its significance to Islam as the Temple was/is to Jews.

Are you saying Muhammad intentionally made it the third holiest site in Islam, without ever actually mentioning the location? And everyone else just knew that was the location he was talking about, without ever mentioning it? And the Muslim scholars who talked about it after his death covered it all up by only considering the possibilities of a Mosque near Mecca and somewhere in heaven?

Or are you just dribbling incoherently? It is hard to tell, given your reluctance to get round to actually saying something.

As I said, you're not intellectually capable of taking on these subjects... I'm not sure what you are intellectually capable of taking on... definitely not religion or geopolitics.

Sure, a 15-year-old with little to no concept of religious traditions can laugh at the absurd claims made in all religions... it takes adult maturity to see them in the context of cultural tradition.

The site of the old Jewish Temple's inner sanctuary - the holy of holies - was deemed to be where Muhammad claimed he flew to during his night flight.

It corresponds in religious significance exactly to where Muhammad claimed he flew from... that's how religious traditions are founded.

Similar to the tradition of the birthplace of Jesus in Bethlehem, even though there is no mention of his birthplace until long after his death... and the site of his crucifixion and burial - not referred to specifically in any text.

And the miracles... even though Paul makes no mention of them... not even the one that Peter (who accompanied Paul), it was later claimed he partook in - the walking on water.

See how religious tradition works?

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #67 - Yesterday at 8:50pm

Quote:

It corresponds in religious significance exactly to where Muhammad claimed he flew from

And that's all you are basing your claim on? It "corresponds"?

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #68 - Yesterday at 9:04pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 8:47pm:

Muhammad never claimed to have ascended to heaven from a site in Jerusalem. That's not why declared the site to be in Jerusalem. They did it for political reasons, long after Muhammad's death, so one of the competing Caliphs in a civil war could claim to have built the third holiest Mosque in Islam.

How could Muhammad claim that when he was dead? Undecided

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #69 - Yesterday at 9:08pm

freediver wrote Yesterday at 8:50pm:

Quote:

It corresponds in religious significance exactly to where Muhammad claimed he flew from

And that's all you are basing your claim on? It "corresponds"?

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

You really need to find an adult you trust to help you come to terms with the limits of your capacity in these subjects.

You can't find historical truth in ancient religious texts... they weren't written that way.

What you'll find are religious traditions that determine where sites are located, what happened and what was said and done.

If you look for scrolls where Jesus jotted down notes about anything he said, you won't find them... Ditto with Muhammad... Likely, both were illiterate. You won't even find reliable texts written by those who it's claimed were standing next to Jesus or Muhammad.

And even if they did once exist, they would have had to be transcribed innumerable times by scribes over centuries who may have embellished the original texts, mistranslated them, or just added whole sections to them.

In the end, what we have are religious traditions that have somehow survived the centuries... that's as good as it gets.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16557 Gender:	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #70 - Yesterday at 9:20pm And this just in... Even Israeli archeologists now concede that Moses likely did not exist... no Mount Sinai... that the 400 years in Egyptian bondage didn't happen, that the Egyptian Pharaoh lost an army chasing after the Israelites... the 10 plagues... the parting of the Red Sea (or the Sea of Reeds)... All religious tradition...
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #71 - Yesterday at 10:05pm

Frank wrote Yesterday at 8:04pm:

6MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:22pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:17pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:13pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 7:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 7:04pm:

Bobby. wrote Yesterday at 6:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Yesterday at 6:56pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

But Jesus is still considered one of the most important Prophets by Islamic text.

Yes. Jesus' message of strict dedication to the Torah (something like the modern Jewish ultra-Orthodox today) is aligned with Muhammad's thinking... or more accurately, Muhammad's message is aligned with Ishwa's message of devotion to god and keeping the law.

Strange how Muslims follow all the old laws of the Torah but hate Jews?

They're in a struggle for hegemony of the Abrahamic faith... but that is not what the modern struggle is about.

Arabs see Jews in the region as European invaders, not in a religious context.

Bollocks.

YOU do.

Ahh, no... that is what Jabotinsky was referring to when he proposed militant Zionism.

He referred directly to the conflict that mass immigration was causing between Palestinian Arabs and European Jews.

And he didn't condemn Arabs for resisting this mass immigration, adding that it was certain to change the political definition and landscape of the region and that any honourable people would resist it as an invasion.

Which is why he advocated for Jewish military strength to take the land and defend it as opposed to lying about Zionist aims during negotiations.

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