Australian Politics Forum - al-Aqsa Mosque

MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #45 - Today at 5:51pm

Frank wrote Today at 4:53pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 4:45pm:

freediver wrote Today at 4:35pm:

And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam?

Muhammad did not 'invent' Islam.

His teachings were a rededication to the Abrahamic faith in the one god that Arabs could claim religious descent from through Abraham's son, Ismael.

He claimed that the archangel Gabriel told him the revelations he'd received were a continuation of those given to the prophet descendants of the prophet Isaac, Ismael's brother.

He absolutely did invent it.

The whole of the Koran is a dreadful, turgid, incoherent invention of an illiterate pryapic merchant turned warlord who half understood Judaism and Christianity.

He offered his 'revelations' to the Jews firsf but when they laughed at him he turned murderous. The whole creed is dripping with inferiority comlex and the bok fetish of the illiterate.

So, like the Christians before him, then.

Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example.

Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story...

And both born with a hole in their hearts.

Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first.

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Bobby.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #46 - Today at 5:59pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 5:51pm:

So, like the Christians before him, then.

Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example.

Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story...

And both born with a hole in their hearts.

Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first.

I saw a doco on TV once that claimed Mohammad started out as a Christian
spreading the words of Jesus but
it developed from there to him declaring himself a prophet.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #47 - Today at 6:06pm

freediver wrote Today at 4:58pm:

Meister appears to be arguing that because Muhammad claimed to be revealing the true nature of previous religions, he did not invent Islam. It is yet another of his curious exercises in circular logic. Because we define Islam as a separate religion to Judaism and Christianity, it can't have been invented by Muhammad, because Muhammad (and Muslims to this day, including on this forum) insist it is actually the same religion.

He also appears to be projecting this same belief onto Christianity, though I have never heard a Christian argue that it is actually the same religion as Judaism.

It is actually almost impossible to talk to a Muslim about Judaism or Christianity, because they define those religions out of existence. They will only talk about Muhammad's various "corrections" to those religious beliefs. It comes across as extremely arrogant. It's like trying to talk to Meister about reality, and he asks you to define reality and point to it in the paperwork. But you have no difficulty talking to a Christian about Judaism or Islam.

You need to reconsider posting in topics like this. You do not have the intellect to carry an argument.

Of course you haven't heard of a Christian who thinks Christianity, or Muslims with Islam, claim it is the same as Judaism... at least not someone with your limited capacity in the subject can see.

Christians and Muslims both believe their respective faith is the one true Abrahamic faith that fulfils and supercedes the original... and they're prepared to kill those who'd deny it. Jews do not partake in the struggle... they're certain that theirs is the one true Abrahamic faith and that it's Yahweh who determines who is with his chosen people - who is of the one true Abrahamic faith, who is not and who is righteous among the gentiles.

For the rest, Jews do not believe that either Christians or Muslims worship the Abrahamic god.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #48 - Today at 6:09pm

Bobby. wrote Today at 5:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 5:51pm:

So, like the Christians before him, then.

Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example.

Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story...

And both born with a hole in their hearts.

Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first.

I saw a doco on TV once that claimed Mohammad started out as a Christian
spreading the words of Jesus but
it developed from there to him declaring himself a prophet.

It's possible... he was believed to have been in contact with gnostics and monastic priests around the trading routes in Arabia.

The Koran has warm teachings of Jesus and particularly warm teachings of Mary.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #49 - Today at 6:21pm

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #50 - Today at 6:32pm

freediver wrote Today at 6:21pm:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

You see, this is where your arrested development identifies you as stuck at 15.

I can argue this all day... You can only repeat infantile stupid questions in the hope some other poster will take pity on you so you can go for argumentum ad populum.

It's certain that Muhammad was aware of the site of the ancient Jewish temple, its significance to the Abrahamic faith of Judaism, and its desecration by the Romans, then the Christians.

It's certain that he did not make a pilgrimage there physically, which is likely why he proposed the night flight story - to connect him with the heart of the Abrahamic faith, being third only in holiness to Mecca and Medina.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #51 - Today at 6:35pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:32pm:

freediver wrote Today at 6:21pm:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

You see, this is where your arrested development identifies you as stuck at 15.

I can argue this all day... You can only repeat infantile stupid questions in the hope some other poster will take pity on you so you can go for argumentum ad populum.

It's certain that Muhammad was aware of the site of the ancient Jewish temple, its significance to the Abrahamic faith of Judaism, and its desecration by the Romans, then the Christians.

It's certain that he did not make a pilgrimage there physically, which is likely why he proposed the night flight story - to connect him with the heart of the Abrahamic faith, being third only in holiness to Mecca and Medina.

Is that your way of saying no? No references at all from when Muhammad was alive?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #52 - Today at 6:38pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:09pm:

Bobby. wrote Today at 5:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 5:51pm:

So, like the Christians before him, then.

Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example.

Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story...

And both born with a hole in their hearts.

Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first.

I saw a doco on TV once that claimed Mohammad started out as a Christian
spreading the words of Jesus but
it developed from there to him declaring himself a prophet.

It's possible... he was believed to have been in contact with gnostics and monastic priests around the trading routes in Arabia.

The Koran has warm teachings of Jesus and particularly warm teachings of Mary.

Yet under Islamic law if you're a Muslim and declare yourself a Christian -
it's called apostasy and they will execute you after a short trial.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #53 - Today at 6:48pm

freediver wrote Today at 6:35pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:32pm:

freediver wrote Today at 6:21pm:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

You see, this is where your arrested development identifies you as stuck at 15.

I can argue this all day... You can only repeat infantile stupid questions in the hope some other poster will take pity on you so you can go for argumentum ad populum.

It's certain that Muhammad was aware of the site of the ancient Jewish temple, its significance to the Abrahamic faith of Judaism, and its desecration by the Romans, then the Christians.

It's certain that he did not make a pilgrimage there physically, which is likely why he proposed the night flight story - to connect him with the heart of the Abrahamic faith, being third only in holiness to Mecca and Medina.

Is that your way of saying no? No references at all from when Muhammad was alive?

You see, as a 5-year-old who's never had a religious education, you're not aware that sites like the Jewish Temple and its holy of holies are well-known to those who have... even if they haven't visited it.

By Muhammad's birth, Christianity was well established, and Christian obsession with Jerusalem was well-known throughout the region...

The Temple Mount - no mosque on it, just the broken remains of the Temple, which, for a laugh, Christians would sometimes allow Jews to visit to watch them weep at the evidence of its destruction.

Muhammad would have been in no doubt that he needed a connection to this site, and it's significant that the night flight began at the site of the Kaaba - the holiest site in Islam - identical in its significance to Islam as the Temple was/is to Jews.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #54 - Today at 6:56pm

Bobby. wrote Today at 6:38pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:09pm:

Bobby. wrote Today at 5:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 5:51pm:

So, like the Christians before him, then.

Judaism is non-proselytising, and Jews are aware of their status as the authentic Abrahamic monotheism. Yahweh chooses his chosen people, not mortals, either by force, persuasion or consciously by example.

Muhammad makes no mention of creating a new faith; he claims his revelations are a rededication and a continuation of the Abrahamic faith. That, like Christianity, Islam did become another faith is another story...

And both born with a hole in their hearts.

Both enforce their claim of being the one true faith over the other two by persuasion, coercion or blood... whichever works first.

I saw a doco on TV once that claimed Mohammad started out as a Christian
spreading the words of Jesus but
it developed from there to him declaring himself a prophet.

It's possible... he was believed to have been in contact with gnostics and monastic priests around the trading routes in Arabia.

The Koran has warm teachings of Jesus and particularly warm teachings of Mary.

Yet under Islamic law if you're a Muslim and declare yourself a Christian -
it's called apostasy and they will execute you after a short trial.

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 116944 Melbourne Gender:	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #55 - Today at 6:59pm MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:56pm: Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary. It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message. But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #56 - Today at 7:04pm

Bobby. wrote Today at 6:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:56pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

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Bobby.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #57 - Today at 7:09pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 7:04pm:

Bobby. wrote Today at 6:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:56pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

But Jesus is still considered one of the most important Prophets by Islamic text.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #58 - Today at 7:13pm

Bobby. wrote Today at 7:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 7:04pm:

Bobby. wrote Today at 6:59pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 6:56pm:

Yes, but Islam embraces Jesus (Ishwa/ Joshua) and his mother, Mary.

It refers to Paul as the liar who perverted Ishwa's message.

But Muslims don't believe that Mary was a virgin.

No. They believe the perverters of Ishwa's message concocted the story to make him like a Pagan god... like the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks did with their gods.

Muhammad probably learned about Ishwa's message from Christians and the pre-Christian Messianics, such as descendants of the followers of 'the Way' who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

But Jesus is still considered one of the most important Prophets by Islamic text.

Yes. Jesus' message of strict dedication to the Torah (something like the modern Jewish ultra-Orthodox today) is aligned with Muhammad's thinking... or more accurately, Muhammad's message is aligned with Ishwa's message of devotion to god and keeping the law.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16557 Gender:	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #59 - Today at 7:16pm It should be no surprise that the Lord's Prayer does not contradict Judaism or Islam... it was written and known before Pauline Judaism was Romanised.
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