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al-Aqsa Mosque (Read 344 times)
MeisterEckhart
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #30 - Today at 3:44pm
 
Frank wrote Today at 3:33pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 1:48pm:
What terrified the disunited Arabs at the time of Justinians attempt to reunify the two Roman empires was that a Christianised united Roman Empire would descend south and conquer Arab lands, which made the need for a shared religion or binding philosophy to be adopted by all the Arab tribes.

Islam was inevitable.


Grin Grin Grin Grin


Mohammed invented Islam to keep the rabbits out!!

He didn't invent Islam; he advocated for the Arabs to dedicate themselves to monotheistic belief, one of the reasons being to unite them as one against the threat of invasion and cultural dominance by another monotheistic people - Christianised Europeans.

Exactly as Constantine had done in Europe 300 years earlier.


Arabs, by Muhammad's time, were well aware of what happens to a people who resisted Christianisation by the western (Roman) and eastern (Byzantine) branches of the religion.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #31 - Today at 3:47pm
 
Quote:
While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition.


Duh. That is my point. It's what I said in the OP.

Quote:
He didn't invent Islam


He claimed to get revelations directly from God (kill the Jews, etc). If that is not inventing a religion, what is?
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #32 - Today at 3:49pm
 

google

The Dome of the Rock was built between 685 and 691/2 C.E. by Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik in Jerusalem to establish a major religious center and mark the triumph of Islam. It was designed to protect the sacred rock (Foundation Stone) on the Temple Mount, believed to be the site of Prophet Muhammad's night journey to heaven.

Key motivations for the construction of the Dome of the Rock included:

Religious Significance:

The site is associated with the Prophet’s Night Journey (al-mi'raj) to heaven, and the rock itself is considered the point from which creation began.

Political Consolidation:

Caliph Abd al-Malik sought to secure his authority during a civil war with rival rulers in Mecca, making Jerusalem a crucial religious center for his supporters.
Rivalry with Other Faiths: The structure was designed to match and even rival the grandeur of nearby Christian, Byzantine-era churches, such as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and to assert Islam's status against the older Abrahamic faiths.

Rebuilding Solomon's Temple: It was also seen as a continuation or reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon (Mihrab Dawud) on the Temple Mount.
While often mistaken for a mosque, the Dome of the Rock was originally intended to function as a mashhad, a shrine for pilgrims.


Same motvations  apply to the al-Aqsa mosque.

What is YOUR point?
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #33 - Today at 3:58pm
 
freediver wrote Today at 3:47pm:
Quote:
He didn't invent Islam


He claimed to get revelations directly from God (kill the Jews, etc). If that is not inventing a religion, what is?

I've yet to read anything you've posted that shows you know anything you post about...

All Jewish prophets claimed revelations directly from god. Muhammad was making the same claims all these prophets made, including Jesus... not to create a new religion.

The term Christian was initially a term of derision applied to those who had 'fallen' for Pauline Judaism - to insult and belittle Paul's teachings as not Judaism.
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #34 - Today at 3:59pm
 
Quote:
Caliph Abd al-Malik sought to secure his authority during a civil war with rival rulers in Mecca, making Jerusalem a crucial religious center for his supporters.


And abra cadabra, the mosque he just built is suddenly the one Muhammad referred to in the Quran and the 3rd holiest site in Islam.

Quote:
All Jewish prophets claimed revelations directly from god. Muhammad was making the same claims all these prophets made, including Jesus... not to create a new religion.


Those prophets created Judaism and Christianity. So Muhammad did the same thing, but did not create Islam?
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #35 - Today at 4:00pm
 
freediver wrote Today at 3:47pm:
Quote:
While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition.


Duh. That is my point. It's what I said in the OP.


So you deny the significance of the site to Islam because it's locality, not named in the Koran, was determined after the Prophet's death.

Quote:
He claimed to get revelations directly from God (kill the Jews, etc). If that is not inventing a religion, what is?


So he did not invent the tradition of Jerusalem as a holy site, his followers did.

You can read why in my previous post.   
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #36 - Today at 4:02pm
 
Quote:
So you deny the significance of the site to Islam because it's locality, not named in the Koran, was determined after the Prophet's death.


Wow. Three pages in and you have already caught up with what I posted in the OP. I should have known you were in speedy mode when you opened by telling everyone what the real point was.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #37 - Today at 4:12pm
 
For those who struggle with the concept of monotheism...

In the Abrahamic tradition, any religion that strays from the first major monotheistic canon - that of the Talmud and the Torah, from which it takes its inspiration- was not considered monotheistic; the 'new' religion was considered to be worshipping another god.

As such, no one who claimed to be an Abrahamic prophet would think of declaring their beliefs a new religion.

It's also one of the reasons the 3 religions fight with each other - for hegemony over monotheism.

The one god in Jerusalem, Rome and Mecca must be the same... otherwise you've got three... And if there's only one god, there can only be one canon...


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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #38 - Today at 4:33pm
 
freediver wrote Today at 3:59pm:
And abra cadabra, the mosque he just built is suddenly the one Muhammad referred to in the Quran and the 3rd holiest site in Islam.

Quote:
All Jewish prophets claimed revelations directly from god. Muhammad was making the same claims all these prophets made, including Jesus... not to create a new religion.


Those prophets created Judaism and Christianity. So Muhammad did the same thing, but did not create Islam?

Have you thought of what you want to be when you grow up?

No single prophet created Judaism; each is considered to be a continuation of Yahweh's revelations to his chosen people.

No prophet created the religion of Christianity, nor claimed to. Paul considered his Judaism to be the Judaism of the Gentiles.

Muhammad did not create the 'new' religion of Islam. If he'd done so, he would have had to concede that Allah was not Yahweh.
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #39 - Today at 4:35pm
 
And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam?
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #40 - Today at 4:45pm
 
freediver wrote Today at 4:35pm:
And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam?

Muhammad did not 'invent' Islam.

His teachings were a rededication to the Abrahamic faith in the one god that Arabs could claim religious descent from through Abraham's son, Ismael.

He claimed that the archangel Gabriel told him the revelations he'd received were a continuation of those given to the prophet descendants of the prophet Isaac, Ismael's brother.
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #41 - Today at 4:47pm
 
freediver wrote Today at 4:02pm:
Quote:
So you deny the significance of the site to Islam because it's locality, not named in the Koran, was determined after the Prophet's death.


Wow. Three pages in and you have already caught up with what I posted in the OP. I should have known you were in speedy mode when you opened by telling everyone what the real point was.


The OP:

Quote:
"Muhammad never made any reference at all to a mosque in modern day Israel.


First error: the Prophet (unlike Jesus who was 'God'.....) could not have known details of  his own ascension (unless 'God' told him).

2nd error: Muslims built the mosque and Dome O-T-R in Jerusalem soon after the Prophet's death. The Koran had no concept of the future recreation of the then  long extinct state of Israel. 

Quote:
Jerusalem is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran.


But the mythology surrounding the ascension (mentioned in the Koran) and the place of creation was determined to be Jerusalem after the Prophet's death.

So why are denying the site's significance to Islam?

Because it's mythology - like the 'Chosen People' and the "Promised Land"?


Quote:
Muhammad never actually travelled to Jerusalem, or anywhere near Israel, other than in his mystical "night journey" referred to in Surah 17. Scholars immediately after his death debated whether Surah 17 (now taken to be a reference to the mosque) was a place in heaven or somewhere near Mecca."


And the caliph who conquered Jerusalem was soon followed by builders of the Mosque and Dome, built to establish the legitimacy of Islam's  mythology re creation and the Ascension.

(In contrast with Jewish "Promised Land" mythology, and  Christian  mythology re Jesus' death and the empty tomb).

Your point?





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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #42 - Today at 4:51pm
 
Quote:
But the mythology surrounding the ascension (mentioned in the Koran) and the place of creation was determined to be Jerusalem after the Prophet's death.

So why are denying the site's significance to Islam?


You keep answering your own question.

Quote:
built to establish the legitimacy of Islam's  mythology re creation and the Ascension.


No. It was built because it happened to be useful to one of the competing Caliphs in a civil war to 'own' the third holiest site in Islam. Your own evidence. There was absolutely no issue of legitimacy before then. Scholars were happy to argue until they were blue in the face whether it was a reference to a Mosque near Mecca or to a place in heaven. Declaring it to be Jerusalem when it happened to be convenient to the Caliph during a civil war hardly lends legitimacy to the claim.
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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #43 - Today at 4:53pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 4:45pm:
freediver wrote Today at 4:35pm:
And that's why you think Muhammad didn't invent Islam?

Muhammad did not 'invent' Islam.

His teachings were a rededication to the Abrahamic faith in the one god that Arabs could claim religious descent from through Abraham's son, Ismael.

He claimed that the archangel Gabriel told him the revelations he'd received were a continuation of those given to the prophet descendants of the prophet Isaac, Ismael's brother.

He absolutely did invent it.

The whole of the Koran is a dreadful, turgid, incoherent invention of an illiterate pryapic merchant turned warlord who half understood Judaism and Christianity.

He offered his 'revelations' to the Jews firsf but when they laughed at him he turned murderous. The whole creed is dripping with inferiority comlex and the bok fetish of the illiterate.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #44 - Today at 4:58pm
 
Meister appears to be arguing that because Muhammad claimed to be revealing the true nature of previous religions, he did not invent Islam. It is yet another of his curious exercises in circular logic. Because we define Islam as a separate religion to Judaism and Christianity, it can't have been invented by Muhammad, because Muhammad (and Muslims to this day, including on this forum) insist it is actually the same religion.

He also appears to be projecting this same belief onto Christianity, though I have never heard a Christian argue that it is actually the same religion as Judaism.

It is actually almost impossible to talk to a Muslim about Judaism or Christianity, because they define those religions out of existence. They will only talk about Muhammad's various "corrections" to those religious beliefs. It comes across as extremely arrogant. It's like trying to talk to Meister about reality, and he asks you to define reality and point to it in the paperwork. But you have no difficulty talking to a Christian about Judaism or Islam.
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