Australian Politics Forum - al-Aqsa Mosque

MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #15 - Today at 12:30pm

freediver wrote Today at 12:02pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 11:14am:

freediver wrote Today at 11:07am:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

The myth of Muhammad's night flight from Mecca to the site of the al-Aqsa Mosque was mentioned in the 17th surah of the Qur'an, Al-Isra, which was revealed during the Meccan period (approx. 615–619 CE).

I'll leave you to Google why the site is holy to all three Abrahamic religions.

I talked about Surah 17 in the opening post Meister. Did you not notice?

The current site, in Jerusalem, is not mentioned in Surah 17. The Surah also does not refer to "the site of the Mosque". It literally says "the farthest Mosque". Hence the debate among scholars at the time as to whether he was referring to an actual mosque, somewhere near Mecca, or some place in heaven.

Is it too much to ask that you at least make sense Meister?

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

Your usual effete bitchy response, I see.

Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time. Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith he was intending to rededicate the children of Ishmael to.

I can see your understanding of religion dates only to a thin 20th century mindset… mixed with a whopping dollop of dunning-Kruger

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #16 - Today at 12:37pm

Quote:

Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

Quote:

Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time.

Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #17 - Today at 12:53pm

freediver wrote Today at 12:37pm:

Quote:

Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

Quote:

Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time.

Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.

Muhammad’s style of oratory and what was written on his behalf indicates that he had learned from both Jews and messianic sect members and Christian sect members.

It’s not like Jerusalem was unknown to those living within the region… the city was already the most significant in Christendom.

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Bobby.

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #18 - Today at 1:01pm

Google AI:

According to Islamic tradition, the Prophet Muhammad traveled from Mecca to the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on a winged, horse-like creature called the Buraq during the "Night Journey" (Isra' and Mi'raj) in 621 CE. Upon arriving at the Temple Mount (Haram al-Sharif), he tied the Buraq to the Wall, prayed at the site, and then ascended to heaven.

Key details regarding this event include:
The Location: The "farthest mosque" (al-masjid al-aqṣá) is traditionally identified with the entire Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem.

The Ascent: While the journey landed at Al-Aqsa, the specific ascension to heaven (Mi'raj) is commonly associated with the rock located inside the Dome of the Rock, which is part of the same compound.
Significance: The event established Jerusalem as the third holiest city in Islam, as it was the site of this miraculous journey and the first Qibla (direction of prayer).

The Buraq: Described as a white, winged beast, smaller than a mule but larger than a donkey, which carried Muhammad between heaven and earth.

The entire Al-Aqsa compound, including the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Qibli Mosque, holds immense religious significance, representing the location where Muhammad led previous prophets in prayer and ascended through the seven heavens to meet God.

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freediver

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #19 - Today at 1:29pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 12:53pm:

freediver wrote Today at 12:37pm:

Quote:

Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

Quote:

Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time.

Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.

Muhammad’s style of oratory and what was written on his behalf indicates that he had learned from both Jews and messianic sect members and Christian sect members.

It’s not like Jerusalem was unknown to those living within the region… the city was already the most significant in Christendom.

So Muhammad could have easily referred to Jerusalem, if that was his intention?

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 116929 Melbourne Gender:	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #20 - Today at 1:44pm FD, Quote: At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam Muhammad ascended to heaven from the Al-Aqsa Mosque riding a horse with wings. That makes it a holy site. What don't you understand?
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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 16545 Gender:	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #21 - Today at 1:48pm What terrified the disunited Arabs at the time of Justinians attempt to reunify the two Roman empires was that a Christianised united Roman Empire would descend south and conquer Arab lands, which made the need for a shared religion or binding philosophy to be adopted by all the Arab tribes. Islam was inevitable.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #22 - Today at 1:54pm

freediver wrote Today at 1:29pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 12:53pm:

freediver wrote Today at 12:37pm:

Quote:

Muhammad knew of the former Jewish temple site and its significance to the faith

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

Quote:

Of course neither Muhammad nor his peers spoke of a mosque that wasn’t built at the time.

Muhammad spoke of it in Surah 17. Remember? He just never said anything about Jerusalem. He spoke a lot about things that don't exist, like flying carpets, ladders to heaven, puddles at the end of the world etc. But struggled with things that do exist.

Muhammad’s style of oratory and what was written on his behalf indicates that he had learned from both Jews and messianic sect members and Christian sect members.

It’s not like Jerusalem was unknown to those living within the region… the city was already the most significant in Christendom.

So Muhammad could have easily referred to Jerusalem, if that was his intention?

Can you find a single reference that identifies the site in Jerusalem as the al-Aqsa Mosque from either Muhammad himself, from someone else before Muhammad died, or from before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if, despite knowing about the existence of the city, they never talked about it being a holy site, nor visited there?

I know there is no external cure for idiocy or dunning-Kruger…

Jerusalem was already the major centre of Christendom for 300 years before Muhammad.

It’s significance was well-known to arabs, although it’s almost certain few would have made a pilgrimage there as it was not at the time religiously significant to them.

Christian focus on the city meant that sooner or later a Christian army would move from there into Arabia.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #23 - Today at 2:44pm

freediver wrote Today at 11:07am:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

Re the link: both the Mosque and the iconic Dome of the Rock were built soon after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century, on foundations of the last Jewish temple which had been destroyed by the Romans over half a millennium earlier.

Quote:

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

(google)

The Koran does mention a miraculous night journey to Jerusalem, which serves as the starting point for his ascension to heaven (the Mi'raj).

This event is mentioned in Surah Al-Isra, verse 1, describing a journey from Al-Masjid-al-Haram in Makkah to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa. This journey is known as Al-Isra (the night journey to Jerusalem) and Al-Mi'raj (the ascension from Jerusalem to the heavens). While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition. The details of his ascension and return to Makkah are found in the Hadith.

The Prophet of course based his new religion on the stories of the OT prophets, he would have known of the general locality of the ancient religion; while his successors identfied the site (as noted above).

Re the Islamic conquest itself (several decades after the Prophet's death):

(google)

The Surrender:

Patriarch Sophronius, the Byzantine leader of the city, agreed to surrender but insisted on surrendering directly to the Caliph. Caliph Umar traveled from Medina to Jerusalem to receive the submission of the city personally.

The Covenant:

Umar signed a treaty, known as the "Umar's Assurance" or "Umariyya Covenant," which guaranteed the safety of the Christian inhabitants, their property, and their churches.

Significance:

This marked the end of nearly 500 years of Roman/Byzantine rule and allowed Jews to return to the city

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« Last Edit: Today at 2:49pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52374 At my desk.	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #24 - Today at 2:47pm You missed the point completely TGD.
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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15017 Gender:	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #25 - Today at 2:50pm freediver wrote Today at 2:47pm: You missed the point completely TGD. No I didnt: read my edit and get back to me.
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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52374 At my desk.	Re: al-Aqsa Mosque Reply #26 - Today at 3:05pm You no longer seem to be telling us what the point is, but you are still no closer to it.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #27 - Today at 3:32pm

thegreatdivide wrote Today at 2:44pm:

freediver wrote Today at 11:07am:

Quote:

The site of the al-Aqsa Mosque has been considered one of the holiest sites of Islam since Islam's founding.

Can you find a single reference that identifies the location of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem from either before Muhammad died or before a later leader decided to build a mosque there and claim the link?

Re the link: both the Mosque and the iconic Dome of the Rock were built soon after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century, on foundations of the last Jewish temple which had been destroyed by the Romans over half a millennium earlier.

Quote:

At the time of Islam's founding, how exactly did Muslims consider the site to be one of the holiest in Islam if they had never heard of it, nor been there?

(google)

The Koran does mention a miraculous night journey to Jerusalem, which serves as the starting point for his ascension to heaven (the Mi'raj).

This event is mentioned in Surah Al-Isra, verse 1, describing a journey from Al-Masjid-al-Haram in Makkah to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa. This journey is known as Al-Isra (the night journey to Jerusalem) and Al-Mi'raj (the ascension from Jerusalem to the heavens). While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition. The details of his ascension and return to Makkah are found in the Hadith.

The Prophet of course based his new religion on the stories of the OT prophets, he would have known of the general locality of the ancient religion; while his successors identfied the site (as noted above).

Re the Islamic conquest itself (several decades after the Prophet's death):

(google)

The Surrender:

Patriarch Sophronius, the Byzantine leader of the city, agreed to surrender but insisted on surrendering directly to the Caliph. Caliph Umar traveled from Medina to Jerusalem to receive the submission of the city personally.

The Covenant:

Umar signed a treaty, known as the "Umar's Assurance" or "Umariyya Covenant," which guaranteed the safety of the Christian inhabitants, their property, and their churches.

Significance:

This marked the end of nearly 500 years of Roman/Byzantine rule and allowed Jews to return to the city

Yes, the significance of the old Jewish temple site and, specifically, the exact site of the Holy of Holies, the innermost sanctum of the former temple, became one of the paramount sites for a faith that intended to expand Abrahamic monotheism.

That Muhammad incorporated it into the core teachings of his rededication to the Abrahamic religion, which Arabs could claim descent through Ishmael, was inevitable.

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Frank

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #28 - Today at 3:33pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 1:48pm:

What terrified the disunited Arabs at the time of Justinians attempt to reunify the two Roman empires was that a Christianised united Roman Empire would descend south and conquer Arab lands, which made the need for a shared religion or binding philosophy to be adopted by all the Arab tribes.

Islam was inevitable.

Mohammed invented Islam to keep the rabbits out!!

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Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: al-Aqsa Mosque
Reply #29 - Today at 3:35pm

freediver wrote Today at 3:05pm:

You no longer seem to be telling us what the point is, but you are still no closer to it.

Your comprehension powers crippled?

While Jerusalem is not explicitly named in the Quran, it is identified as the location of Al-Aqsa Mosque in later Islamic tradition. The details of his ascension and return to Makkah are found in the Hadith.

Ie, the site of the Prophet's ascension to heaven, which IS mentioned in the Koran, with details deveioped in the Hadith

Hence the "holy site".

"Hadith" the recorded, oral traditions containing the sayings, actions, and silent approvals of the Prophet Muhammad, serving as a foundational guide for Islamic law and daily life. Second in authority only to the Quran, these reports (or "traditions") help define the Sunnah (established custom) of the Prophet.

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