Australian Politics Forum - What rights do you have?

MeisterEckhart Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 16507 Gender:	Re: What rights do you have? Reply #30 - Today at 9:34am Awwright... throw freediver a bone... Even a dog, mistreated by its owner, appears to have an instinct for what is right... a capuchin monkey knows when it's treated unfairly... Where do these instincts come from? What do they imply?
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Frank

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #31 - Today at 10:37am

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 9:34am:

Awwright... throw freediver a bone...

Even a dog, mistreated by its owner, appears to have an instinct for what is right... a capuchin monkey knows when it's treated unfairly...

Where do these instincts come from? What do they imply?

A moral human universe.

Animals do not behave morally with each other. The zebra is never treated 'unfairly by the lion, the mouse unfairly by the the cat.

Morals and therefore rights are human categories, human values.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52334 At my desk.	Re: What rights do you have? Reply #32 - Today at 10:42am Other animals have been shown to recognise moral, or at least fair, behaviour.
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 56423 Gender:	Re: What rights do you have? Reply #33 - Today at 10:54am freediver wrote Today at 10:42am: Other animals have been shown to recognise moral, or at least fair, behaviour. In the eyes of human - ie moral - observers. See Aesop's Fables, or La Fontain, Mandeville, Graham etc. The pecking order in a pack of wolves or dogs is not a moral construct by the animals.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #34 - Today at 11:08am

Frank wrote Today at 10:37am:

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 9:34am:

Awwright... throw freediver a bone...

Even a dog, mistreated by its owner, appears to have an instinct for what is right... a capuchin monkey knows when it's treated unfairly...

Where do these instincts come from? What do they imply?

A moral human universe.

Animals do not behave morally with each other. The zebra is never treated 'unfairly by the lion, the mouse unfairly by the the cat.

Morals and therefore rights are human categories, human values.

Yep... And yet, a capuchin monkey appears to manifest a comprehension of 'fair play' in that if it is not rewarded in kind for the same action performed by another capuchin, it protests loudly.

A mistreated dog appears to demonstrate a sense that it knows its mistreatment is unfair when, finally, it attacks its owner.

Copulation with father-daughter, mother-son mammals seems to be taboo... even among the extreme free-sex animal 'hippies', Bonobos.

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chimera Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 14600 Armidale Gender:	Re: What rights do you have? Reply #35 - Today at 12:14pm Elephants protect young, even when it's not a carnivore hunting them. A calf was directed back into the herd. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-15/elephants-huddle-to-protect-calves-during...
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 56423 Gender:	Re: What rights do you have? Reply #36 - Today at 12:37pm chimera wrote Today at 12:14pm: Elephants protect young, even when it's not a carnivore hunting them. A calf was directed back into the herd. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-15/elephants-huddle-to-protect-calves-during... Not a moral behaviour. They are not protecting the rights of their young.
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chimera

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #37 - Today at 12:45pm

The adults were extending their concern to the young who seemed unaware. It wasn't self-defence by the adults when there was no visible attacker. Young complied with community policy.

Another example is a brown snake that negotiated with me by turning sideways to display the fangs clearly and held that position to make it clear. Then it came halfway toward me, stopped and eyeballed me. I took one step back, negotiations over and snake didn't attack but turned back to what it had been doing. That needed calculation, calmness and response to reaction. Those relate to balanced behaviour.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #38 - Today at 12:51pm

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of examples where higher-order mammals show what appear to be moral behaviour or awareness of rights.

When lionesses make a kill, the first to eat is the alpha lion, who... well... takes the lion's share - eats first and longest, even if the lionesses together could take him on.

When the lion is rough-housing with one or more of his brothers or cousins and accidentally injures one of them, it immediately knows to back off.

When a small baboon is being monstered by a bigger one, it runs for a baby and cradles it. This act immediately pacifies the larger one, who moves on to another weak baboon.

When rats are wrestling, experienced rats know to allow the less experienced rat to occasionally win.

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chimera Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 14600 Armidale Gender:	Re: What rights do you have? Reply #39 - Today at 1:50pm Even non-rights can be rights. A 'rookery' is where birds steal sticks from each other for nests. The benefit is mutual....
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Frank

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #40 - Today at 3:40pm

chimera wrote Today at 12:45pm:

The adults were extending their concern to the young who seemed unaware. It wasn't self-defence by the adults when there was no visible attacker. Young complied with community policy.

Another example is a brown snake that negotiated with me by turning sideways to display the fangs clearly and held that position to make it clear. Then it came halfway toward me, stopped and eyeballed me. I took one step back, negotiations over and snake didn't attack but turned back to what it had been doing. That needed calculation, calmness and response to reaction. Those relate to balanced behaviour.

Not moral behaviour.

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 16507 Gender:	Re: What rights do you have? Reply #41 - Today at 3:45pm Of course, animals can’t demonstrate morality and express or respect rights in the way humans do… animals do not get to choose their behaviour by reason, and, with morality, a component of behaviour being considered moral is the choice to act contrary to it. If you couldn’t but act morally….
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Frank

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #42 - Today at 3:48pm

MeisterEckhart wrote Today at 12:51pm:

There are dozens, if not hundreds, of examples where higher-order mammals show what appear to be moral behaviour or awareness of rights.

When lionesses make a kill, the first to eat is the alpha lion, who... well... takes the lion's share - eats first and longest, even if the lionesses together could take him on.

When the lion is rough-housing with one or more of his brothers or cousins and accidentally injures one of them, it immediately knows to back off.

When a small baboon is being monstered by a bigger one, it runs for a baby and cradles it. This act immediately pacifies the larger one, who moves on to another weak baboon.

When rats are wrestling, experienced rats know to allow the less experienced rat to occasionally win.

Dozens if not hjndreds:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/11339/11339-h/11339-h.htm

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/50316/50316-h/50316-h.htm

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2306/2306-h/2306-h.htm

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/57260/57260-h/57260-h.htm

See also Aboriginal, African, Indian animal fables. .

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chimera

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #43 - Today at 4:19pm

Frank wrote Today at 3:40pm:

[]
Not moral behaviour.

Moral behaviour requires an underlying set of decisions / attitudes/ whatever. One person's right means others willingly constrain themselves to allow it. It means a concept of 'group'.
Elephants particularly need to belong to a group for mental well-being. (many species need their herd). Ducks almost commit suicide to divert an attacker's attention from ducklings.

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Bobby.

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Re: What rights do you have?
Reply #44 - Today at 4:32pm

freediver wrote Today at 8:45am:

Quote:

Rights are neither theory nor reality... they are assertions of principles that often run counter to theory and reality.

So the question "what rights do you have in reality?" is impossible for you to answer? You can only answer the question "what rights do you have on paper?" And when the paperwork and reality are at odds, the paperwork is the only source of truth?

FD,
You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
You have the right to an attorney.
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.
Do you understand the rights I have just read to you?

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