This is a far more sensible, realistic, reasonable and sane plan than that which Trump wants enforced...

Reuters: European leaders have made a counter-proposal that differs significantly from the US draft

From CNN’s Jonny Hallam

Europe’s E3 powers of Britain, France and Germany created a counter-proposal to the United States’ 28-point Ukraine peace plan, according to Reuters, which saw the text on Sunday.

The text was confirmed as accurate by one European official and one European diplomatic source speaking to CNN’s chief international security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh.

One of those officials said the text was an accurate reflection of European bids to change the US draft proposal, but that further alterations could have been made during fast-moving talks in Geneva today.

Here’s how the plan differs: Among the key changes included in the counter-proposal was a softening of the language around restricting NATO in Europe.

The European version also removed mention of territorial concessions. The regions of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk were all explicitly recognized as de facto Russian in the US plan. In the new European proposal, all recognitions of Russian control are removed. It demands a ceasefire before determining territorial swaps, and that the current front line be the basis for any future discussions.

The Europeans also removed the 100-day deadline for elections in Ukraine, instead saying elections will be held as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

The European proposal removes all references to US-Russia investment structures, shifting toward an approach where Russia pays reparations to Ukraine.

It also said the size of Ukraine’s military would be “capped at 800,000 in peacetime,” which is the amount of military personnel it currently has, compared to limit of 600,000 stated in the US-plan.

My bet is that there would have been far more Ukrainians alive today
if Ukraine would have surrendered in 2022.
Ukraine was set up by the USA and the Europeans to shed their blood
when in fact there was no real commitment to help them -
just supply enough weapons to keep the war in a permanent stalemate
and bleed both the Ukrainians and Russians slowly for years -
except that the combined losses are over 1,000 dead per day
if you add up Ukrainian and Russian losses.

Trump has basically forced Ukraine into a surrender anyway -
the 28 point plan is close to an unconditional surrender and
none of the so called guarantees of security will ever be placed into law
in the USA or any NATO country -
they are not worth the paper they are written on -
same as the Budapest memorandum and the 2014 and 2015 Minsk agreements -
false promises by diplomats that meant nothing in reality.

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:43am:



Zelensky had more bargaining power in 2022 -

he could have told NATO -
you either come in here and defend Ukraine with massive air power and your own troops
or you'll face the massive Russian army anyway - after they take Ukraine.

John Smith wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 10:36am:


And giving Trumpy money.

Trump will try to get Russia whatever they want.

"Trump’s businesses went bankrupt so many times in the 1990s that many legitimate banks wouldn’t lend to him anymore. He turned to Russian oligarchs — Putin’s ruling clique — to bankroll his projects, and launder their dirty money for them. This was, and continues to be, a huge part of his business. He’s a Russian money launderer."

Ukraine is not free -
possibly 1 million Ukrainians are dead.
It has proven that unless a country is in NATO -
Russia will attack them and NATO won't send troops and massive air power
to win the war – they'll just supply enough weapons to form a stalemate.
NATO is weak and divided – Russia as a bully took advantage of that.
My bet is that Russia will invade every non NATO country around them now -
they are there for the taking just like Ukraine.
The NATO presidents, prime ministers and leaders will just clutch their pearls
in horror and do nothing.

Even if NATO countries are attacked – article 5 might prove worthless.
NATO doesn't have the stomach for a war that could lead to WW3 and nukes.
All NATO countries should have been in a war economy by now after nearly 4 years -
but they have trouble raising their arms expenditure from 2% to 3% of GDP.
In WW2 Britain was spending 50% of their GDP on war.
This is a phoney war.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Nov 24^th, 2025 at 11:37am:



True but how many more millions of Ukrainians will die to prove that point?