Australian Politics Forum - And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile

lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19657 Gender:	And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile Nov 13^th, 2025 at 10:42am Roger Cook - All in on Green Steel. Even though the fundamentals don't stack up. Green energy is too expensive due to intermittency. It would require multiple expensive batteries. Nothing a politician likes more is GREEN. Money, energy...
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 53792 Gender:	Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile Reply #1 - Nov 13^th, 2025 at 1:17pm Captain Zog.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #2 - Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:43pm

lee wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 10:42am:

Green energy is too expensive due to intermittency. It would require multiple expensive batteries.

The batteries are currently available; the grid needs to be upgraded.

Naturally the filthy fossil industry doesn't want to invest in the green economy - and private investors won't do so without government guidelines - because filthy fossils (including for smelting iron) are very lucrative (unlike free sunshine and wind).

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Nothing a politician likes more is GREEN. Money, energy... Wink

Susan Ley is on stronger ground today, by pointing to the cost of the transition which - as she correctly says - is pushing up electricity prices.

Solution: the government opens a special account at treasury, named 'green financing', and funds it with free treasury-issued money.

Then Oz can buy all the batteries and new grid it needs, for free....

Please tell us why or how this would cause inflation, given private investors could spend the same amount of money - but won't without being assured the fossil industry must be radically reduced by (say) 2040...sorry for the suggestion, Susan.

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lee

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #3 - Nov 13^th, 2025 at 5:43pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:43pm:

The batteries are currently available; the grid needs to be upgraded.

Really. How many watt-hours at what cost? Or do you think that the government should pay for the privilege of Business?

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:43pm:

Naturally the filthy fossil industry doesn't want to invest in the green economy - and private investors won't do so without government guidelines - because filthy fossils (including for smelting iron) are very lucrative (unlike free sunshine and wind).

Fossil fuels are free too. Until you mine them. Like Solar panels they are free too, until you buy them. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:43pm:

Susan Ley is on stronger ground today, by pointing to the cost of the transition which - as she correctly says - is pushing up electricity prices.

More specifically it is the cost of renewables pushing up the prices. The Fossil fuelled can only generate part time, because Renewables get first dibs, But they have to run to be ready for when they fail to deliver. So we have to pay for both Renewables and the cost of the fossil fuelled generators that have to run as backup. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:43pm:

Solution: the government opens a special account at treasury, named 'green financing', and funds it with free treasury-issued money.

Then Oz can buy all the batteries and new grid it needs, for free....

So you want the private companies to be given the free means of production. Why not the steel too? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:43pm:

Please tell us why or how this would cause inflation, given private investors could spend the same amount of money - but won't without being assured the fossil industry must be radically reduced by (say) 2040..

It is the Government stupid. They couldn't handle a candy raffle. Grin

Government spending leads to inflation, especially on the Never Never. Wink

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78050 Gender:	Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile Reply #4 - Nov 13^th, 2025 at 6:17pm lee wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 5:43pm: Really. How many watt-hours at what cost? Or do you think that the government should pay for the privilege of Business? Isn't that exactly what the libs proposed with their nuclear policy?
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19657 Gender:	Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile Reply #5 - Nov 13^th, 2025 at 9:16pm John Smith wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 6:17pm: Isn't that exactly what the libs proposed with their nuclear policy? What? Batteries? Are you batshit crazy?
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thegreatdivide

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #6 - Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am

lee wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 5:43pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 4:43pm:

The batteries are currently available; the grid needs to be upgraded.

Really. How many watt-hours at what cost?

See the big batteries already rolled out in Oz; China can meet the supply needs.
As for cost, I have explained government doesn't need taxpayer money.

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Or do you think that the government should pay for the privilege of Business?

No , government should decree allocation of resources when the private sector won't implement agreed policy (eg net zero).

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Fossil fuels are free too. Until you mine them. Like Solar panels they are free too, until you buy them. Wink

You confusion (driven by blind market ideology) abounds: fossils are owned by the exploiting companies; indeed in 1953 the CIA overthrew Iran's popularly elected PM (Mossadegh) in Iran when he tried to nationalize Iran's oil owned by British and American oil companies.

And every gallon of fossil fuels used by consumers must be paid for, by consumers.

Whereas after the consumer puchases a PV panel, the electricity produced is free to the consumer - hence the rapid uptake of PVs and batteries in Oz.

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More specifically it is the cost of renewables pushing up the prices. The Fossil fuelled can only generate part time, because Renewables get first dibs, But they have to run to be ready for when they fail to deliver. So we have to pay for both Renewables and the cost of the fossil fuelled generators that have to run as backup. Wink

Not renewables themselves (which are cheapest form of new energy) , but the grid needed to accomodate renewables' intermittency, a grid which is incompatable with the old fossil-ready grid.

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So you want the private companies to be given the free means of production. Why not the steel too?

Your market ideology crippling your analysis as always.

Private companies are free to invest and produce, to make a profit.

But the transition to green won't incentivize private companies unless government regulates the transition.

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]Please
It is the Government stupid. They couldn't handle a candy raffle.

Silly assertion from a blind market ideologue.

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Government spending leads to inflation especially on the Never Never

Mere assertion; government funding for grid upgrade and batteries, when the necessary resources are available for purchase by the government, is not the 'Never Never', nor will it lead to inflation, because the proposed public resource use of resources is an alternative to private sector use of (fossil fuel) resources, not in competition with the private sector.

.......

The Libs today are saying the cost of net zero is their concern - proving they are AGW/GHG deniers.

But of course neither Lib nor Lab - both blinded by the Thatcherite 'taxpayer money' delusion - will say how much their respective polices will cost, and when prices will begin to fall.

It's time to end the 'taxpayer money' delusion:

https://publicmoneypublicgood.net/

..allowing 'taxpayers' to save the planet, even if they can't bear the 'cost' of saving it.

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John Smith

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #7 - Nov 14^th, 2025 at 12:36pm

lee wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 9:16pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 13^th, 2025 at 6:17pm:

Isn't that exactly what the libs proposed with their nuclear policy?

What? Batteries?

No dumbarse, that government should pay for the privilege of Business.

Or are you going to keep pretending you didn't understand the question so that that you don't have to admit you're a moron?

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19657 Gender:	Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile Reply #8 - Nov 14^th, 2025 at 8:42pm John Smith wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 12:36pm: Or are you going to keep pretending you didn't understand the question so that that you don't have to admit you're a moron? Ah you switched from batteries to nuclear and I was supposed to understand. Now about nuclear batteries.
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lee

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #9 - Nov 14^th, 2025 at 9:18pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

See the big batteries already rolled out in Oz;

You mean those huge ones that can provide power for 1 hour? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

China can meet the supply needs

They are about the sole supplier, and like to control their product, which means controlling the market. The CCP are the main backers of the battery makers. We have seen what they do to Australian products when miffed. Roll Eyes

But you being so beholden to them, it is not strange seeing you boosting them.

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

As for cost, I have explained government doesn't need taxpayer money.

Yes, but you can't back it up. It is not proven. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

No , government should decree allocation of resources when the private sector won't implement agreed policy (eg net zero).

Ah Government by decree. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

fossils are owned by the exploiting companies;

You have never heard of the Mineral Resources RENT Tax? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

Whereas after the consumer puchases a PV panel, the electricity produced is free to the consumer - hence the rapid uptake of PVs and batteries in Oz.

Only until they fail. Then they need to pay for removal, handling, and burying... and then buy more. Renewables eh? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

And every gallon of fossil fuels used by consumers must be paid for, by consumers.

Ah you believe that the extractors should pay for it? So China makes PV's and they should pay for the removal et al? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

Not renewables themselves (which are cheapest form of new energy) , but the grid needed to accomodate renewables' intermittency, a grid which is incompatable with the old fossil-ready grid.

Renewables SHOULD include the cost of the necessary batteries as they are KNOWN to be intermittent. And then the batteries must last at least 5-7 days, due to solar and wind drought. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

Your market ideology crippling your analysis as always.

As always you won't answer the hard questions. Just where does the largesse stop? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

Private companies are free to invest and produce, to make a profit.

And where they don't see a profit, they won't. Just like companies backing away from Hydrogen. So renewables should have to guarantee supply or pay other utilities to supply. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

But the transition to green won't incentivize private companies unless government regulates the transition.

Ah regulates, a euphemism for subsidises. So much for private companies making a profit. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

Silly assertion from a blind market ideologue.

So telll when was the last time the government did something on budget, which they themselves budgeted? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

government funding for grid upgrade and batteries, when the necessary resources are available for purchase by the government, is not the 'Never Never', nor will it lead to inflation, because the proposed public resource use of resources is an alternative to private sector use of (fossil fuel) resources, not in competition with the private sector.

If the debt is not repaid it is by definition on the Never Never. Never getting paid. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

The Libs today are saying the cost of net zero is their concern - proving they are AGW/GHG deniers.

You haven't provided proof of any AGW. There are many who believe that it is there, but that it is benign and not a climate crisis. More peoiple die of cold, in Australia as elsewhere, than heat. Less people are dying of cold, and you seem to indicate that is a bad thing. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

But of course neither Lib nor Lab - both blinded by the Thatcherite 'taxpayer money' delusion - will say how much their respective polices will cost, and when prices will begin to fall.

But Labor were the lataest ones saying they had the policies that would reduce the cost. Subsidies don't reduce the cost, they mask the true cost. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

.allowing 'taxpayers' to save the planet, even if they can't bear the 'cost' of saving it.

So that's where your quote about taxpayers going bankrupt came from. Grin

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John Smith

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #10 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 6:52am

lee wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 8:42pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 12:36pm:

Or are you going to keep pretending you didn't understand the question so that that you don't have to admit you're a moron?

Ah you switched from batteries to nuclear and I was supposed to understand. Grin

so you didn't understand what the word 'nuclear' meant? You read the word 'nuclear' and think people are discussing duracells? Cheesy

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thegreatdivide

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #11 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am

lee wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 9:18pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 14^th, 2025 at 11:48am:

See the big batteries already rolled out in Oz;

You mean those huge ones that can provide power for 1 hour? Grin

That's right, we need hundreds of them; but also combined with millions of small batteries connected to PVs on all suitable household roofs, subsidized by (....free) government money.

Now we are talking GWs of storage equivalent to the entire Oz energy output and usage.

Quote:

They are about the sole supplier, and like to control their product, which means controlling the market. The CCP are the main backers of the battery makers. We have seen what they do to Australian products when miffed. Roll Eyes

Heard of transfer of technology, and manufacturing under licence?

The resulting global boom in battery manufacturing could enrich the whole world.

Quote:

Yes, but you can't back it up. It is not proven. Roll Eyes

Logic - admittedly not available for the terminally deluded like you.

Note : money is created ex nihilo, by the legal issuer; what's your problem?

Quote:

Ah Government by decree. Grin

Crippled Conservative brain: 'by decree', when the private market results in market failure - and worse...

......

Address the above, before I examine the rest of your garbage; eg "never heard of the MRRT? " , as if that's a defence of your absurd argument re ownership of fossils in the ground, cf 'ownership' of sunshine and wind.

Note: fossils in the ground belong to the Commonwealth.....sunshine and wind belong to the world; 'ownership' is moot....

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« Last Edit: Nov 15^th, 2025 at 12:32pm by thegreatdivide »

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lee

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #12 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:37pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

That's right, we need hundreds of them; but also combined with millions of small batteries connected to PVs on all suitable household roofs, subsidized by (....free) government money.

Now we are talking GWs of storage equivalent to the entire Oz energy output and usage.

Storage is measured in GigaWatt Hours not gigawatts. And since you don't know that you don't know the cost. Except for you ideology wher it is "freeeee". Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

Heard of transfer of technology, and manufacturing under licence?

Yes. Have you heard of China doing that or have you heard of them stealing technology and selling at a discount? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

The resulting global boom in battery manufacturing could enrich the whole world.

Under your scenario it is only China that can get rich. Manufacturing under licence means ongoing paymwents to China. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

Logic - admittedly not available for the terminally deluded like you.

Ah logic, as espoused by you. Goit it. You don't know squat about energy, science or the economy but you can spout schit, and pretend. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

'by decree', when the private market results in market failure - and worse...

As decided by the government with no input from anyone, except those benefiting from the sub sisies. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

"never heard of the MRRT? " , as if that's a defence of your absurd argument re ownership of fossils in the ground, cf 'ownership' of sunshine and wind.

So a rental tax is not a rental tax. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

fossils in the ground belong to the Commonwealth..

Exactly, What don't you understand about taxation? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 11:20am:

sunshine and wind belong to the world;

Nope. They belong to wherever it b lows at that time. Austraia's wind doesn't move wind generatore in Europe. Besides a part of CO2 theory is that a warming world will have "stilling", that is winds don't blow as hard. That means they don't produce as much energy. Then of course there is the wind shadow, which means they must be spaced away from each other. Another part of engineering you know nothing about. Roll Eyes

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 19657 Gender:	Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile Reply #13 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:38pm John Smith wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 6:52am: so you didn't understand what the word 'nuclear' meant? You were the one changed it from being about batteries to nuclear. So just what about those nuclear batteries you must have thought you meant?
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John Smith

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Re: And Cap'n Zog of Wait Awhile
Reply #14 - Nov 15^th, 2025 at 7:08pm

lee wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 2:38pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 15^th, 2025 at 6:52am:

so you didn't understand what the word 'nuclear' meant?

You were the one changed it from being about batteries to nuclear. So just what about those nuclear batteries you must have thought you meant? Wink

So i was right, you see the word 'nuclear' and you think people are discussing duracells ... you really that stupid Grin

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