Australian Politics Forum - Israel's right to exist

freediver

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #30 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 7:33am

Sir lastnail wrote on Sep 12^th, 2025 at 11:02pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 10^th, 2025 at 12:35pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 10^th, 2025 at 12:30pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 10^th, 2025 at 12:23pm:

Quote:

What does it mean for a state to have a right to exist?

That you are considered to be in the wrong by trying to destroy it.

Not sure why this needs to be explained Meister. Do you not understand the consequences of abandoning this philosophy?

Do you deny Israel's right to exist?

If so, why are you so keen to leave that aside and quibble over the borders?

You remember what quibbling means, don't you?

That's not an answer; I'm asking you what criteria you use to determine that a state has the right to exist.

The criteria is bleeding obvious Meister. Would you like to have a go at figuring it out yourself?

Do you deny Israel's right to exist?

If so, why are you so keen to leave that aside and quibble over the borders?

You remember what quibbling means, don't you?

For whose benefit should it exist ?

For the benefit of everyone who would die as a consequence of denying its right to exist.

I don't think you understand the point of the question Nail. Or maybe you just don't like your own answer.

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tickleandrose

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #31 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 7:44am

Throughout history, the 'right to existence' is not determined by other people's opinions, but rather by strength of arms and economy. With backing of US, Israel's existence is well cemented. In fact, Israel is able to topple and kill every other political leaders in all the countries around it at will, is a testimony to right of its own existence.

Right now, the question is if the Palestinian people have the right to exist. They dont have the types of arms and economy to threaten Israel. They are being killed en mass, bombed, and starved, and yet, the narrative is about if Israel have the right to exist. This is just so upside down.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #32 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 8:22am

There is no statute within international law or local laws, where a state has a right to exist.

In the case of Israel, this term was popularised in the 1950s, after the conflict with Arab states erupted into full-scale war.

Since then, it has assumed a false air of legality to the point that many people think it is the law.

Israel's right to exist is not even asserted in Israeli law.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #33 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 8:50am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 8:22am:

There is no statute within international law or local laws, where a state has a right to exist.

In the case of Israel, this term was popularised in the 1950s, after the conflict with Arab states erupted into full-scale war.

Since then, it has assumed a false air of legality to the point that many people think it is the law.

Israel's right to exist is not even asserted in Israeli law.

What gave this term legs - Israel's right to exist - was its ready acceptance by the US, Europe and other Western countries, against which Jews could claim living experience of persecution and also refer accurately to centuries of European/ Euro-Christian-New World persecution.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #34 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 11:12am

The very reason the West supported Israel from its establishment was not primarily to protect Jews from Muslims, but to protect Jews from Christo-European states and their nationals.

You can be sure no Israeli or diaspora Jew would be confident in assuming that European states would never repeat their persecution of Jews, once the memory of the Holocaust fades... or even if the memory of it persists.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #35 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 12:28pm

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2025 at 8:31am:

So do you still put caveat's on Israel's right to exist that you would not put on any other country?

I'll give you hint - the answer is not in the paperwork.

Your error: the answer - after the creation of the UN - IS in the "paperwork", in this case UN res 181.

Israel has no right to exist unless it adheres to that resolution.

You are still ignoring the changes in international relations - including the LEGAL 'right to exist' - which occurred with the creation of the UN Charter in 1945.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #36 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 12:37pm

tickleandrose wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 7:44am:

Throughout history, the 'right to existence' is not determined by other people's opinions, but rather by strength of arms and economy. With backing of US, Israel's existence is well cemented. In fact, Israel is able to topple and kill every other political leaders in all the countries around it at will, is a testimony to right of its own existence.

Like FD, you are ignoring the changes in international relations - including the LEGAL 'right to exist' - which occurred with the creation of the UN Charter in 1945.

Quote:

Right now, the question is if the Palestinian people have the right to exist. They dont have the types of arms and economy to threaten Israel. They are being killed en mass, bombed, and starved, and yet, the narrative is about if Israel have the right to exist. This is just so upside down.

Says the guy who hasn't caught up with the fact of the creation of the UN Charter in 1945, to 'save mankind from the scourge of war...', and hence you still believe "might is right", condemning mankind to endless war.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #37 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 12:51pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 12:28pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2025 at 8:31am:

So do you still put caveat's on Israel's right to exist that you would not put on any other country?

I'll give you hint - the answer is not in the paperwork.

Your error: the answer - after the creation of the UN - IS in the "paperwork", in this case UN res 181.

Israel has no right to exist unless it adheres to that resolution.

You are still ignoring the changes in international relations - including the LEGAL 'right to exist' - which occurred with the creation of the UN Charter in 1945.

No state has a right to exist.

The UN recognises that a state does exist, not that it has a right to exist, should exist, or must exist.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #38 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 1:03pm

The claim that Israel has a right to exist is a euphemistic (Jewish) way of saying, 'given the multi-century persecutions against us by Europeans, and in light of its worst incarnation - the Holocaust - we, their descendants and survivors, have earned our right to have a state exist that is dedicated to the service, well-being and protection of Jews.'

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #39 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 2:21pm

Israel - as a declared and universally accepted state, has every right to exist, same as Australia or any other country declared and accepted and operating within the requirements for BEING a nation/state.

Gaza does not fit those criteria - Palestine does not exist as such so if anyone 'recognises' it they will have to say where it is etc... there are no Palestinians - the 'government' there is an outlaw terrorist group....

What are all these countries afraid of? Abdul getting upset and causing trouble?

Now then - who's in favour of a total cessation of Islamic immigration, the return to Homeland of any troublemakers, and clamping down on any violence instead of licking their nuts every time?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #40 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 2:28pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 2:21pm:

Israel - as a declared and universally accepted state, has every right to exist, same as Australia or any other country declared and accepted and operating within the requirements for BEING a nation/state.

Gaza does not fit those criteria - Palestine does not exist as such so if anyone 'recognises' it they will have to say where it is etc... there are no Palestinians - the 'government' there is an outlaw terrorist group....

What are all these countries afraid of? Abdul getting upset and causing trouble?

Now then - who's in favour of a total cessation of Islamic immigration, the return to Homeland of any troublemakers, and clamping down on any violence instead of licking their nuts every time?

States exist by decree, not by right.

Does the Basque region have a right to exist as an independent state? Does Catalonia have a right to exist as an independent state? Does Kurdistan?

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tickleandrose

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #41 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 3:34pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 2:21pm:

Israel - as a declared and universally accepted state, has every right to exist, same as Australia or any other country declared and accepted and operating within the requirements for BEING a nation/state.

Gaza does not fit those criteria - Palestine does not exist as such so if anyone 'recognises' it they will have to say where it is etc... there are no Palestinians - the 'government' there is an outlaw terrorist group....

What are all these countries afraid of? Abdul getting upset and causing trouble?

Now then - who's in favour of a total cessation of Islamic immigration, the return to Homeland of any troublemakers, and clamping down on any violence instead of licking their nuts every time?

in Gaza alone, there are 2 million people. 2 Million people that got displaced from their rightful homeland. Of course, many of them will take up arms where ever they get driven to in order to get their homeland back. Such is human nature. By then attacks against Israel will come from abroad. Israel will then retaliate . They will invade where ever the new lands those refugees have settled, and the cycle of violence starts again. And Israel will then have more reason to expand their territory in the name of estalishing a safe buffer zone. No country around Israel would want that.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 112820 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Israel's right to exist Reply #42 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 3:51pm "Israel's right to exist?" It's the wrong question. The people who live in Israel all have the right to exist - that includes Palestinians. To me - when Bibi destroys all of Gaza he's destroying Israel.
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tickleandrose Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4186 Gender:	Re: Israel's right to exist Reply #43 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 4:01pm Bobby. wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 3:51pm: "Israel's right to exist?" It's the wrong question. The people who live in Israel all have the right to exist - that includes Palestinians. To me - when Bibi destroys all of Gaza he's destroying Israel. I agree with Bobby. People should have the right to exist!
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tickleandrose

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Re: Israel's right to exist
Reply #44 - Sep 13^th, 2025 at 4:02pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 12:37pm:

tickleandrose wrote on Sep 13^th, 2025 at 7:44am:

Throughout history, the 'right to existence' is not determined by other people's opinions, but rather by strength of arms and economy. With backing of US, Israel's existence is well cemented. In fact, Israel is able to topple and kill every other political leaders in all the countries around it at will, is a testimony to right of its own existence.

Like FD, you are ignoring the changes in international relations - including the LEGAL 'right to exist' - which occurred with the creation of the UN Charter in 1945.

Quote:

Right now, the question is if the Palestinian people have the right to exist. They dont have the types of arms and economy to threaten Israel. They are being killed en mass, bombed, and starved, and yet, the narrative is about if Israel have the right to exist. This is just so upside down.

Says the guy who hasn't caught up with the fact of the creation of the UN Charter in 1945, to 'save mankind from the scourge of war...', and hence you still believe "might is right", condemning mankind to endless war.

I admire your idealogy. But it is not the real world.

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