Australian Politics Forum - ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket

thegreatdivide

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #45 - Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm

lee wrote on Sep 17^th, 2025 at 1:31pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 17^th, 2025 at 11:49am:

One man's beliefs are another man's reality. Ouch, we have a problem....

Yep. Now you are reduced to quoting things not related. And you see yourself as Trump? Grin

Low IQ; you are claiming the necessity to fund disabilty depends on the individual's "ability to cope", rather than the severity of the disability - a belief on par with Kirk's conservative view of reality.

And no I don't see myself as Trump, I see you as a crippled-brain Conservative who thinks 'poverty is always with us'; whereas Trump thinks he knows how to eliminate poverty in the US....at the expense of the rest of the world......

Quote:

I queried their methodology, which as yet, has not been proposed. But you are all in… because.

Their method - to ensure the NDIS is sustainable - is to move cases of non-severe disability to other less resource-intensive/expensive support programs.

I'm in, because sustainability of the support is rational and necessary.

Quote:

Nope. Another misquote, Nothing about choice.

Government has to fund the actual support needed, not choose between the individuals' perceived abilities to cope.

Quote:

Yes and you have not shown otherwise. Roll Eyes

One person with autism may need an entirely different - and much cheaper - support program, cf another with autism - a condition which is mannifested in a continuum from severe to moderate disability. Indeed some autistic people don't require external support at all; they can cope very well, unlike the people the government must support.

Quote:

TGD: Central banks and private banks all create new money out of nothing, mostly in private banks.

Which is NOT the same as printing. Roll Eyes

OK, now is your chance to say WHAT printing means (ie in a mostly cashless economy.

Does it mean printing, or "printing", or creating money ex nihilo?

Quote:

It is.

So you need to define what YOU mean by printing money, in a cashless economy.

Quote:

But it is your belief and you have posted nothing to confirm your belief that "issue" or "create" or "print" are the same thing"

I have explained (a) common usage (and the common confusion) of the terms printing and "printing"; and (b) the reality of money creation.

Quote:

Common usage doesn't make it correct either.

My very point; so now's your chance: what do YOU think it means?

Quote:

Only in your pea brain otherwise you woukd quote one of your MMT mentors.[/.quote]

Gosh - crippled brain AND dumb, which is why you refuse to say what you mean by money printing versus "money printing" versus creating money ex nihilo.

[quote]And what is your interpretation, dummy?

You haven't even shown a link. Was it your own quote? ;

Says the dummy who can't - or won't - say what he thinks printing money, or "printing money" means, cf. creating money ex nihilio.

Quote:

You haven't even shown that.

Dummy can't even comprehend a simple sentence from google: "QE is nick-named as"printing" (by the general public).

Quote:

TGD: Indeed the Modern Money school of econonomics lays the groundwork for creating an economy which works for all, in our post gold-standard, fiat currency era.

Kumbayah.

Indeed, let's rejoice the solutions made available by the Modern Money school for eradicatig poverty and war, rather than blindly supporting the status quo out of ignorance re money creation and inflation control.

Quote:

Ah yes, back to "controlling inflation". With productivity rises? Except productivity is going down. Resources? You haven't explained how resources improve witha decline inproductivity.
Something else?

Wow, there might be hope for the crippled Conservative brain yet, to heal itself.

He is asking the right questions, after being dragged kicking and sceaming to consider an economy which works for all.

Answers:

(a) no; increasing productivity in the macro-economy depends on technology advances, not people working harder in individual workplaces.

(b) yes, or rather managing resources to ensure supply always meets demand, in the macro-economy.

[Re "a decline in productivity": productivity measures the number of work-hours needed to produce widgets sold in a market place, and is of secondary importance as an economy becomes increasingly services based (eg health, age/child care, and education), as automation and tech advance replace workers in the comsumer-goods-production sector, releasing workers for the services sector.

iow, the services sector doesn't produce widgets to be sold in a competitive market place, it (mostly) produces the caring services needed and expected in a humane community.

eg, doubling the number of students per teacher likely DECREASES productivity, even though statistically twice as many students are being taught per teacher, because of teacher burn out and less specialized care per student, leading to worse educational outcomes.]

(c) yes.

First step, replace the "independent reserve bank" - with its blunt, interest rate setting tool - with a dedicated inflation control agency, in a mandated full employment, zero interest rate policy scenario.

By now you should know your "productivity" dogma is ill-conceived; productive capacity of the macro economy is the significant factor.

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lee

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #46 - Sep 18^th, 2025 at 5:15pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

you are claiming the necessity to fund disabilty depends on the individual's "ability to cope", rather than the severity of the disability

True. Now refute it. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

a belief on par with Kirk's conservative view of reality.

Really? Have you got Kirk saying that? Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

And no I don't see myself as Trump, I see you as a crippled-brain Conservative who thinks 'poverty is always with us'

It is something Xi hasn't accomplished. Tackle him. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Their method - to ensure the NDIS is sustainable - is to move cases of non-severe disability to other less resource-intensive/expensive support programs.

No that is only a small part of what needs to happen. First they have to identify, oops lefties don't want peoople identified, racially, sexually... but now you say they want to identify them by theire disability. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Government has to fund the actual support needed, not choose between the individuals' perceived abilities to cope.

And how exactly do they achieve that without anyones ability to cope being factored? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

One person with autism may need an entirely different - and much cheaper - support program, cf another with autism - a condition which is mannifested in a continuum from severe to moderate disability. Indeed some autistic people don't require external support at all; they can cope very well, unlike the people the government must support.

You still haven't shown us HOW they will differentiate peoples disability. It needs a decision, a decision means making judgements, which means characterising. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

OK, now is your chance to say WHAT printing means (ie in a mostly cashless economy.

Who said it was mostly a cashless economy? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

So you need to define what YOU mean by printing money, in a cashless economy.

You need to show this cashless economy. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

I have explained (a) common usage (and the common confusion) of the terms printing and "printing"; and (b) the reality of money creation.

Yes. That is YOUR belief system. Show from whence your idea came. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Quote:
Common usage doesn't make it correct either.

My very point; so now's your chance: what do YOU think it means?

Ah, your very point? But it was your proposition that common usage made "print"= print. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Says the dummy who can't - or won't - say what he thinks printing money, or "printing money" means, cf. creating money ex nihilio.

So no references from your MMT mentors. That means it is likely totally unsupported by your MMT mentors. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Dummy can't even comprehend a simple sentence from google: "QE is nick-named as"printing" (by the general public).

Nope. But it has by some members of the media. Grin

"Quantitative easing has been nicknamed "money printing" by some members of the media" - wiki.

Of course neither the media nor the general public have dibs on what is "common". Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

Indeed, let's rejoice the solutions made available by the Modern Money school for eradicatig poverty and war, rather than blindly supporting the status quo out of ignorance re money creation and inflation control.

Let us know when we finally reach that nirvana of peace and prosperity, the antithesis of poverty and war. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

(a) no; increasing productivity in the macro-economy depends on technology advances, not people working harder in individual workplaces.

And I never said anything different. I said productivity was falling. which means the supposed technological advances have not emerged. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

(b) yes, or rather managing resources to ensure supply always meets demand, in the macro-economy.

First you have to have the necessary resources. If that involves importation it just raises another barrier, like China controlling most lithium supply. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

[Re "a decline in productivity": productivity measures the number of work-hours needed to produce widgets sold in a market place, and is of secondary importance as an economy becomes increasingly services based (eg health, age/child care, and education), as automation and tech advance replace workers in the comsumer-goods-production sector, releasing workers for the services sector.

Ooh "releasing workers for the "service industry"? Those well paid jobs that generally rely on tips to survive. Grin

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #47 - Sep 19^th, 2025 at 11:59am

lee wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 5:15pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 18^th, 2025 at 2:45pm:

you are claiming the necessity to fund disabilty depends on the individual's "ability to cope", rather than the severity of the disability

True. Now refute it. Roll Eyes

eg, some people are unable to physically feed themselves, whether due to mental or physical disability. So "ability to cope" with disability is meaningless in those cases, the specifics of the disability as it relates to ability to survive, need to be addessed

Quote:

Really? Have you got Kirk saying that? Wink

Kirk was as deluded as you:

(article from Alternet)

When Charlie Kirk was assassinated, he was sitting under a tent that had “The American Comeback Tour” printed in huge letters across all four sides. It was the theme of his tour of college campuses, a tour run by his Turning Point organization that was, according to NBC News, early-funded by 10 morbidly rich right-wingers.

.... on health care, Kirk opposed the kind of universal health care every other developed country in the world has, calling the VA an example of failed “government-run” healthcare.

The article examines how the US middle class was decimated by the triumph of the Reagan/Thatcher 'small government'/low tax ideology, resulting in today's highly unequal society (I will post the entire article in the MMT thread).

Quote:

It is something Xi hasn't accomplished. Tackle him.

The CCP lifted 700 million people out of poverty at the fastest rate in history, at the same time as inequality has been soaring in the West, resulting in democracy becoming increasingly unviable as a form of stable government - hence the current murderous hyperpartisanship in the US.

[But indeed Western Neoclassical mainstream government debt ideology - also followed by PBofC economists - is a problem in China, now that China is the world's largest manufacturing nation and the West wants to decouple from trade with China because the West can't compete].

Quote:

No that is only a small part of what needs to happen. First they have to identify, oops lefties don't want peoople identified, racially, sexually... but now you say they want to identify them by theire disability. Roll Eyes

Why is determining the level of disability only a small part of funding the disability? And I'm not speaking for "lefties" who - like you - divert to identity politics, when the real issue re government funded welfare is management of national resources.

Quote:

And how exactly do they achieve that without anyones ability to cope being factored? You still haven't shown us HOW they will differentiate peoples disability. It needs a decision, a decision means making judgements, which means characterising. Roll Eyes

eg, determining the specifics of disability, such as whether the disabled person can feed himself...nothing to with "ability to cope".

That's the disability part of the debate addressed; the funding part will be addressed in a following post.

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lee

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #48 - Sep 19^th, 2025 at 12:37pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 11:59am:

eg, some people are unable to physically feed themselves, whether due to mental or physical disability. So "ability to cope" with disability is meaningless in those cases, the specifics of the disability as it relates to ability to survive, need to be addessed

Nope. The ability to cope is just that. If they are unable to feed themselves they don't have the ability to cope. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 11:59am:

Kirk was as deluded as you:

(article from Alternet)

When Charlie Kirk was assassinated, he was sitting under a tent that had “The American Comeback Tour” printed in huge letters across all four sides. It was the theme of his tour of college campuses, a tour run by his Turning Point organization that was, according to NBC News, early-funded by 10 morbidly rich right-wingers.

.... on health care, Kirk opposed the kind of universal health care every other developed country in the world has, calling the VA an example of failed “government-run” healthcare.

The article examines how the US middle class was decimated by the triumph of the Reagan/Thatcher 'small government'/low tax ideology, resulting in today's highly unequal society (I will post the entire article in the MMT thread).

And yet you couldn't find anything specific, just a broad brush approach, How very inconvenient of him. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 11:59am:

The CCP lifted 700 million people out of poverty at the fastest rate in history, at the same time as inequality has been soaring in the West, resulting in democracy becoming increasingly unviable as a form of stable government - hence the current murderous hyperpartisanship in the US.

And he still hasn't achieved it.

Yes, the last thing China wants is democracy. That would mean giving up the leaders perks of office. Grin

It is one of the reasons climate change doesn't get much attention. See my post in Emvironment. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 11:59am:

Why is determining the level of disability only a small part of funding the disability?

Because other factors are involved, unlike you I don't see a one size fits all. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 11:59am:

eg, determining the specifics of disability, such as whether the disabled person can feed himself...nothing to with "ability to cope".

Answered above. Try harder.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #49 - Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm

Quote:

TGD: OK, now is your chance to say WHAT printing means (ie in a mostly cashless economy.

Who said it was mostly a cashless economy?

You still can't say what YOU mean by printing money ....or is it "printing money", you low IQ fraud.

So you divert with the question "who said it is a cashless economy"?

Answer:

(google):

Australia is not entirely cashless, but cash usage has significantly declined, with digital payments now dominating transactions and making it a "functionally cashless" society. While most businesses accept digital payments, some people, including the elderly, those in remote areas, and individuals without digital access, still rely on cash. Efforts are underway to ensure continued access to cash for those who need it, but the long-term trend indicates a future where digital transactions are the norm

So, now you can answer the question: what do mean by printing money... or is it "printing money" - without diverting to your low IQ questions.

Quote:

Ah, your very point? But it was your proposition that common usage made "print"= print.

Indeed, but YOU refuse to say whether "print" = print.

My point is both refer to money creation ex nihilo, though the public don't understand how money is created in our current dysfunctional economy, ie money is mostly created ex nilhilo in private banks, forcing government to raise revenue by taxes, or borrowing, its own currency.

Ancient, obsolete ideology - the specialty of blind self-interested Conservative ideologues.

Quote:

So no references from your MMT mentors. That means it is likely totally unsupported by your MMT mentors. [/quiote]

??

MMT explains why currency-issuing governments CAN - with minor tweaking of laws relating to treasury and central bank regulations - free government financing from subservience to bond traders and reluctant taxpayers.

[quote]"Quantitative easing has been nicknamed "money printing" by some members of the media" - wiki.

Of course neither the media nor the general public have dibs on what is "common". Grin

My point entirely.. to repeat:

MMT explains why currency-issuing governments CAN - with minor tweaking of laws relating to treasury and central bank regulations - free government financing from subservience to bond traders and reluctant taxpayers, by creating its own currency ex nihilo, while directly controlling inflation as already explained - before you ranted about lack of resources.

So what do YOU mean by money printing or is it "money printing"....

Quote:

Let us know when we finally reach that nirvana of peace and prosperity, the antithesis of poverty and war. Wink

As internet connectivity increases, and critiques of mainstream ecomnomics are more widely read, more and more people will understand poverty is a politcal choice (of Conservatives), not a necessity.

Quote:

TGD (a) no; increasing productivity in the macro-economy depends on technology advances, not people working harder in individual workplaces.

And I never said anything different. I said productivity was falling. which means the supposed technological advances have not emerged. Roll Eyes

"Productivity" (ie what YOU mean by it !) is falling, but not because of lack of technological advance, but because of the change from industrial to service economies.

Quote:

TGD (b) yes, or rather managing resources to ensure supply always meets demand, in the macro-economy.

First you have to have the necessary resources. If that involves importation it just raises another barrier, like China controlling most lithium supply. Roll Eyes

Well, Oz IS self-sufficient in resources (we just have to refine our own lithium and rare earths), but to your point: indeed the IMF and WB should be managing FAIR TRADE to ensure all nations can develop in a sustainable and fair fashion (to eradicate poverty), instead of succumbing to the Conservative 'survival of the fittest' ethos.

Quote:

Ooh "releasing workers for the "service industry"?

See, you blindly missed the point that advancing technology lowers productivity, as workers move to the services sector, because productivity - as measured by output per hours worked - isn't necessarily the goal in a service industry; I gave the example of the school room where lower 'productivity' (more teachers per student) can mean better educational outcomes.

So your 'productivity' mantra fails.

Any more questions re an economy which works for all in Oz, given lack of resources in Oz isn't a problem, and we can import necessities not manufactured here.

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lee

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #50 - Sep 19^th, 2025 at 4:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

You still can't say what YOU mean by printing money ....or is it "printing money"

Geez, Talk about thick. The central bank prints money. All else is from your fevered imagination.

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

Indeed, but YOU refuse to say whether "print" = print.

No petal I have consistently said "print" does NOT = print. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

MMT explains why currency-issuing governments CAN - with minor tweaking of laws relating to treasury and central bank regulations - free government financing from subservience to bond traders and reluctant taxpayers, by creating its own currency ex nihilo, while directly controlling inflation as already explained - before you ranted about lack of resources.

And once agin nothing about "print" = print = create. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

As internet connectivity increases, and critiques of mainstream ecomnomics are more widely read, more and more people will understand poverty is a politcal choice (of Conservatives), not a necessity.

So it is not a political choice of the left? It certainly isn't because MMT has shown itself to be good. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

"Productivity" (ie what YOU mean by it !) is falling, but not because of lack of technological advance, but because of the change from industrial to service economies.

But if technology had increased productivity, it wouldn't be falling. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

Well, Oz IS self-sufficient in resources (we just have to refine our own lithium and rare earths), but to your point: indeed the IMF and WB should be managing FAIR TRADE to ensure all nations can develop in a sustainable and fair fashion (to eradicate poverty), instead of succumbing to the Conservative 'survival of the fittest' ethos.

So MMT only applies to Aus because Germany for instance, doesn't have it. You know that Germany, despite its embrace of the renewables nirvana is exporting jobs because of high cost of electricity. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

See, you blindly missed the point that advancing technology lowers productivity, as workers move to the services sector, because productivity - as measured by output per hours worked - isn't necessarily the goal in a service industry; I gave the example of the school room where lower 'productivity' (more teachers per student) can mean better educational outcomes.

Yoiu do know "can mean" can also mean"does not". Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

Any more questions re an economy which works for all in Oz, given lack of resources in Oz isn't a problem, and we can import necessities not manufactured here.

Yes. Importation, at the risk of export bans. Wink

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lee

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #51 - Sep 19^th, 2025 at 6:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 3:04pm:

See, you blindly missed the point that advancing technology lowers productivity, as workers move to the services sector, because productivity - as measured by output per hours worked - isn't necessarily the goal in a service industry; I gave the example of the school room where lower 'productivity' (more teachers per student) can mean better educational outcomes.

BTW - You are using the wrong metric for productivity. Productivity is measured by the output of quality widgets, not just widgets. Or quality of product per hours worked.

Therefore, the correct metric should be about the quality of output of the students, not the teachers, The teachers are merely the means of production. Wink

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thegreatdivide

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #52 - Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm

lee wrote on Sep 19^th, 2025 at 4:38pm:

No petal I have consistently said "print" does NOT = print. Roll Eyes

But it does.

"Monetization of debt is when a central bank pays for government spending by creating new money, effectively buying the government's debt and permanently increasing the money supply. Instead of selling bonds to the public, the government "borrows" directly from the central bank, which then "prints" the money to cover the debt. This practice is often called "printing money" and is restricted in many countries due to the significant risk of causing inflation or even
hyperinflation"

Quote:

And once agin nothing about "print" = print = create. Roll Eyes

In the above quote, printing money (shown as "printing money") is equated with creating money ex nihilo, which is the only way money is created (whether in the central or private banks).

So what do you mean by printing money, as opposed to "printing money"?

Quote:

So it is not a political choice of the left? It certainly isn't because MMT has shown itself to be good.

MMT is an accurate description of how money works in a post gold standard fiat ecomomy. Yet the mainstream Left, like the mainstream Right, are still deluded by Neoclassical economics.

Quote:

But if technology had increased productivity, it wouldn't be falling.

Dummy, ypu are still ignoring the difference between productivity in the competitive consumer-goods market, compared wth productivity in the public sector which is not driven by personal profit, but by better social outcomes eg better educational outcomes, better health outcomes and better transport options.

eg, obviously more students per teachers does NOT mean better productivity, more private cars does not mean better productivity. etc.

Quote:

So MMT only applies to Aus because Germany for instance, doesn't have it. You know that Germany, despite its embrace of the renewables nirvana is exporting jobs because of high cost of electricity. Grin

Dummy, funding the public sector - without relying on private sector money - depends on availability of resources which the public sector can utilize and purchase for free.

Stop asking silly, confused questions when you can't address the point, which is availability of resources. As for Germany, it is crippled by the war because cheap Russian gas is no longer available.

Quote:

Yes. Importation, at the risk of export bans. Wink

No risk for Oz; we stopped building cars, but can import cars from China because we have a trade surplus with China.

OTOH, we should maintain a steel industry and upgrade it to produce green steel for the world, given our renewables resources, and our small population which can only use a fraction of the green steel we can produce.

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #53 - Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 3:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

"Monetization of debt is when a central bank pays for government spending by creating new money, effectively buying the government's debt and permanently increasing the money supply. Instead of selling bonds to the public, the government "borrows" directly from the central bank, which then "prints" the money to cover the debt. This practice is often called "printing money" and is restricted in many countries due to the significant risk of causing inflation or even
hyperinflation"

Reference?

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

In the above quote, printing money (shown as "printing money") is equated with creating money ex nihilo, which is the only way money is created (whether in the central or private banks).

For which you haven't given a source. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

MMT is an accurate description of how money works in a post gold standard fiat ecomomy.

That is your interpretation. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

Dummy, ypu are still ignoring the difference between productivity in the competitive consumer-goods market, compared wth productivity in the public sector which is not driven by personal profit, but by better social outcomes eg better educational outcomes, better health outcomes and better transport options.

So productivity has multiple meanings depending on YOUR definition. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

eg, obviously more students per teachers does NOT mean better productivity, more private cars does not mean better productivity. etc.

you were the one bleating about teacher's productivity, but they are merely means of production. Old machines, new machines that have to go to university for remedial English and maths just don't cut it. Grin

What has more private cars have to do with any productivity? You are clutching at straws. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

Dummy, funding the public sector - without relying on private sector money - depends on availability of resources which the public sector can utilize and purchase for free.

Yes, so you have said. But what are these specific resources the public can purchase? And why free? if you have to purchase they are not free. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

As for Germany, it is crippled by the war because cheap Russian gas is no longer available.

Then the gas was not a German resource, but Russian. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

No risk for Oz; we stopped building cars, but can import cars from China because we have a trade surplus with China.

No risk? Never? You are an idiot. Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

OTOH, we should maintain a steel industry and upgrade it to produce green steel for the world, given our renewables resources, and our small population which can only use a fraction of the green steel we can produce.

Two things-
1. green steel is not cheap. Not from wind, solar or hydrogen, of which (hydrogen) there are no commercial operations because of cost.

2. Other countries are far larger and can produce widgets far cheaper because of economies of scale.

That means it is a no go, just like automotive manufacturing. Roll Eyes

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #54 - Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:36pm

lee wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 3:38pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2025 at 2:03pm:

"Monetization of debt is when a central bank pays for government spending by creating new money, effectively buying the government's debt and permanently increasing the money supply. Instead of selling bonds to the public, the government "borrows" directly from the central bank, which then "prints" the money to cover the debt. This practice is often called "printing money" and is restricted in many countries due to the significant risk of causing inflation or even
hyperinflation"

Reference?

[Note: since 'saving money' is noted in the topic of this thread, I will take this slowly for you; others may be capable of learning something about fiat currencies, in the post gold-standard era.]

The above reference is from google, got by simply asking what debt monetization is.

Interestingly, here is wikipedia's account of debt monetization, in which google's reference to "printing money" appears as printing money without the quotes - a difference you are obsessing over:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_monetization

Debt monetization or monetary financing is the practice of a government borrowing money from the central bank to finance public spending instead of selling bonds to private investors or raising taxes. The central banks who buy government debt, are essentially creating new money in the process to do so. This practice is often informally and pejoratively called printing money[1] or (net) money creation. It is prohibited in many countries, because it is considered dangerous due to the risk of creating runaway inflation.

So let's see if we can clear up your confusion over (a)printing money, verses (b)"printing money", versus (c)creating money ex nihilo, given I exposed the irrelevance of your reference to creating physical money - a point you have yet to acknowledge.

[To repeat (google): While cash is the most liquid form of money, the majority of money in a modern economy is held in digital bank accounts, not physical cash.

So what do YOU mean by "printing money", versus printing (physical?) money, versus creation of money ex nihilo, given the inexorable movement away from cash to digital money in the modern economy?

Now - once you admit (a) = (b) = (c) for the purposes of this discussion ie how can the c-i government (which doesn't need to print physical cash for its own funding) save money, we can address the real problem faced by currency-issuing governments, namely how to manage RESOURCE utilzation, to avoid inflation.

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Then the gas was not a German resource, but Russian. Roll Eyes

So you are addressing the trade issue.

Well, because Germany could afford to buy and import cheap Russian gas, the gas became available for use just as if it were German gas.

Of course resource deficient nations rely on imports, which means they must have the means to pay for those imports.

Pointing to the need for an international system to oversee resource allocation, to engender sustainable growth in all nations.

But, given such a system doesn't yet exist (though climate change might force its introduction), resource-rich countries like Oz can safely indulge debt monetization provided they manage their national resource endowment intelligently (ie other than via the blind 'invisible hand', self-interest-driven market alone).

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lee

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #55 - Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:56pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:36pm:

The above reference is from google, got by simply asking what debt monetization is.

Interestingly, here is wikipedia's account of debt monetization, in which google's reference to "printing money" appears as printing money without the quotes - a difference you are obsessing over:

Oh google and wiki? Grin

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:36pm:

Quote:
Then the gas was not a German resource, but Russian. Roll Eyes

So you are addressing the trade issue.

Well, because Germany could afford to buy and import cheap Russian gas, the gas became available for use just as if it were German gas.

You were the one suggesting Russian gas was a german resource and then late saying we are safe from the Chinese because solar panels, wind turbines and EV's because we have a positive trade balance. Trade balances mean nothing in the real world of wars and hegemony. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:36pm:

Of course resource deficient nations rely on imports, which means they must have the means to pay for those imports.

But imports are a restriction in times of war, or merely international tensions. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:36pm:

But, given such a system doesn't yet exist (though climate change might force its introduction), resource-rich countries like Oz can safely indulge debt monetization provided they manage their national resource endowment intelligently (ie other than via the blind 'invisible hand', self-interest-driven market alone).

Oh yet. Hope springs eternal in the Chinese heart.

Why do the Chinese continue to build coal fired plants when,apparently, solar and wind are so cheap, and fast to install? Roll Eyes

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LNP never again Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1986 Gender:	Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket Reply #56 - Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 8:15pm Should get more lnp donors , sorry consultants . That was heaps cheaper..
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thegreatdivide

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #57 - Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm

lee wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:56pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:36pm:

The above reference is from google, got by simply asking what debt monetization is.

Interestingly, here is wikipedia's account of debt monetization, in which google's reference to "printing money" appears as printing money without the quotes - a difference you are obsessing over:

Oh google and wiki?

Yes.

The definition of debt monetization isn't a concept you can dispute, like climate science, it's merely a definition of a process related to fiat currency creation.

Google and wiki both say that printing money = "printing money" = creating money ex nihilo.

So stop being a dummy and learn the first lesson about fiat currency.

Quote:

You were the one suggesting Russian gas was a german resource and then late saying we are safe from the Chinese because solar panels, wind turbines and EV's because we have a positive trade balance. Trade balances mean nothing in the real world of wars and hegemony. Roll Eyes

Aha, so you reject the possibility of sustainable development in all nations, even though money is created ex nihilo, because the Chinese are a "threat"......

Thanks for enabling me to understand the real reason why you insist an economy which works for all is a 'pipedream' - even in Oz where resources are plentiful.

Trump of course is busy telling the UN why it is useless, while he is bent on MAGA....

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Oh yet. Hope springs eternal in the Chinese heart.

Hopes springs eternal in all human hearts.

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Why do the Chinese continue to build coal fired plants when,apparently, solar and wind are so cheap, and fast to install? Roll Eyes

Because coal plants operate 24/7 with the existing grid, whereas new renewables need more time to develop new storage and transmission.

Hence, unlike the US and Oz who are blessed with large reserves of less carbon-emitting gas (which can also power an existing grid 24/7), China relies on coal while it is transitioning to renewables at the fastest rate of any country in the world.

(google)

"China is rapidly increasing its electricity supply, accounting for half of the global increase in power generation in 2024 and experiencing the fastest growth in electricity consumption among major economies".

Yet China's carbon emissions are expected to peak before 2030, as the necessary renewables storage and transmission infrastructure-rollout catches up to electricity supply requirements; China is also expanding its nuclear capacity at the fastest rate of any nation.

(google)

At the current pace, China could overtake the U.S. in nuclear capacity by 2030, according to BofA's Tran

......

So back to money; I suppose you will continue to obfuscate on the issue of printing money = "printing money" = creating money ex nilhilo, despite the possibility of debt monetization by central banks.

After all, creating an economy which works for all is a 'pipedream'...

Got it.

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #58 - Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

The definition of debt monetization isn't a concept you can dispute, like climate science, it's merely a definition of a process related to fiat currency creation.

Wiki - is monitored and edited by volunteers. Volunteers do not necessarily have any great economic learning. So unless you know who the volunteers are, their prognostications carry no worth. Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2025 at 3:36pm:

This practice is often informally and pejoratively called printing money

You do understand the meaning of "informally"? It carries no weight at all. It certainly doesn't mean - "printing money = "printing money" = creating money ex nihilo."

So where do those words come from? Not from any of your public sources. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

Aha, so you reject the possibility of sustainable development in all nations, even though money is created ex nihilo, because the Chinese are a "threat"......

No. You were the one who said something along the lines of "economies that print their own money" and said Sri Lanka didn't print their own money.

I said importations are a risk, which you deny because ... "Australia has a trade surplus". Of course that didn't help when the Chinese dropped the price of lithium, to control overseas startups. And if you think the Chinese Government had no implication in it you are more blinkered than I thought. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

Hopes springs eternal in all human hearts.

Yes. But most also have tempered hopes. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

Because coal plants operate 24/7 with the existing grid, whereas new renewables need more time to develop new storage and transmission.

Ah, So a country that exports more EV's than anyone cannot do storage, and they don't have existing transmission lines? Seems like the Chinese are into deceptive practices. Wink

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

(google)

"China is rapidly increasing its electricity supply

You are relying on google again. Grin

So if there are no transmission lines what exactly are they connected to? Roll Eyes

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

(google)

At the current pace, China could overtake the U.S. in nuclear capacity by 2030, according to BofA's Tran

Ooh Could? Does that mean that renewables are not the great hope at all? Roll Eyes

.thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

So back to money; I suppose you will continue to obfuscate on the issue of printing money = "printing money" = creating money ex nilhilo, despite the possibility of debt monetization by central banks.

You are the one can't provide one reference that "printing money = "printing money" = creating money ex nilhilo," Grin

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Re: ALP: lets save money on NDIS with a junket
Reply #59 - Oct 3^rd, 2025 at 1:09pm

lee wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:36pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Sep 24^th, 2025 at 7:00pm:

The definition of debt monetization isn't a concept you can dispute, like climate science, it's merely a definition of a process related to fiat currency creation.

Wiki - is monitored and edited by volunteers. Volunteers do not necessarily have any great economic learning. So unless you know who the volunteers are, their prognostications carry no worth. Roll Eyes

Interesting that a mere description of 'debt monetization' is apparently the basis of your rejection of the concept of debt monetization itself (as defined by google, wiki - and mainstream economic orthodoxy - who reject it because of (wrongly) perceived inflation risks.

And while you can attempt to refute climate science by rejecting scientific observations re AGW/CO2 emissions, you can't reject a mere description of debt monetization which you can obtain from any mainstream economist - who indeed will bleat about the inflation risk of debt monetization.

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TGD This practice is often informally and pejoratively called printing money

You do understand the meaning of "informally"? It carries no weight at all. It certainly doesn't mean - "printing money = "printing money" = creating money ex nihilo." [/quote]

Crippled brain lee: the public's ignorance re money creation results in the "informal and pejorative " equation of debt monetization with money printing.

Indeed, debt monetization IS "money printing"/money printing/'creation of money ex nihilo, but the public pejoraively refer to it as "money printing" or, in your confused brain, simply money ptinting ...minus the quotes (!) .

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So where do those words come from? Not from any of your public sources. Wink

Er - the google and wiki public sources spoke of "printing money"/printing money.... which are both public speak for creating money ex nihilo.

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No. You were the one who said something along the lines of "economies that print their own money" and said Sri Lanka didn't print their own money.

No; Sri Lanka was forced to borrow IMF (and private) money because poor government management of the nation's resources resulted in debt being unrepayable.

But NO c-i government should borrow money, either in its own currency or in IMF-loaned US dollars or other currencies.

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I said importations are a risk, which you deny because ... "Australia has a trade surplus". Of course that didn't help when the Chinese dropped the price of lithium, to control overseas startups. And if you think the Chinese Government had no implication in it you are more blinkered than I thought. Wink

Wrong again (oh, crippled brain lee); I said Oz has a trade surplus with China (cf a deficit with the US, among others). Now of course if Conservatives like Morrison are claiming the CCP is evil, China will react.

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Yes. But most also have tempered hopes. Wink

Not tempered by the Conservative "might is right" ideology.

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TGD Because coal plants operate 24/7 with the existing grid, whereas new renewables need more time to develop new storage and transmission.
]

Ah, So a country that exports more EV's than anyone cannot do storage, and they don't have existing transmission lines? Seems like the Chinese are into deceptive practices.

Crippled brain lee: manufacturing EVs in existing plants NOW creates more private wealth , than building massive new TW scale storage and transmission which will require years to rollout.

Quote:

So if there are no transmission lines what exactly are they connected to? Roll Eyes

China is in fact rolling out high voltage lines transferring renewables (solar, wind) from the Gobi desert to the East coast. But the demand for electricity is growing exponentially, huce the need to add coal to the existing grid until new renewables and nuclear overtake fossils, a decade long project.

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Ooh Could? Does that mean that renewables are not the great hope at all? Roll Eyes

Crippled brain lee" : "is on track to", and indeed China will need 4 times as much electricity as the US.

Quote:

You are the one can't provide one reference that "printing money = "printing money" = creating money ex nilhilo," Grin

See MMT. All money is created ex nihilo, the question is by whom.

Money printing is the perjorative term used by the unknowing public (USERS of the currency) who think the currency-ISSUING government's budget is like their houseld budget.

The 'earth is flat', you see - just look around you....

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