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Australia's first treaty with first nations (Read 2305 times)
freediver
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #45 - Aug 25th, 2025 at 5:10pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 5:02pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 4:35pm:
The consequences are the same Brian, whatever label you put on it.


Australia hosted a conference of all the Socialist states around the world back in the early 1970s.  We were accorded the honour as the second most Socialist nation in the world.  Since then we have gone downhill with major privatisation efforts.  Australians tend to think that effort has gone too far.  We are paying proportionately more in fees for services as a consequence.  We are making oligarchs richer at our expense.  Gough would never allow that in his Term as Prime Minister.  Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


I see the point went way over your head Brian.

Obviously the communists and racists are not going to have a problem with Aborigines living in squalor and violence without any sense of self determination as a result of racist and communist government policies.
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Frank
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #46 - Aug 25th, 2025 at 5:44pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 4:21pm:
Frank wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 4:19pm:
ProudKangaroo wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 3:19pm:
Communism is state ownership, full stop.

How are you struggling with such a basic definition?


It is an idiotic misunderstanding by you, perhaps that's why.

It is common ownership in a COLLECTIVE, a commune. Like a kibbutz.  Wink

State ownership is not communism.


No, its socialism.  Ownership of the means of production held in common equates to basic socialism.  If you knew anything about political theory, you'd know that, Soren.  Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Don't tell me, Bbwiyawn, tell KangaLoon. He is the one labouring unders a total misunderstanding, with a full stop, no less. Suddenly a man of VERY few words (all wrong, of course).

Commune- ism about holding everything collectively, by the commune. It has been realised in small communes, among primitive peoples and by Russeau-ites imitating/playing at being, primitive people, like kibbutzim. Aborigines lived in proto-communism and their clinging to it is what ****s them, good and proper. Some cuz can rock up from Whoop Whoop and make a claim on your house, food, daughters, booze and drugs and you can't say no because it's 'kultcha'. So your house is devasteted, your family is traumatised and your 'elders' will ostracise you if you object to the 'law'.


There have never been communist states and never can be, unless it s a small city state or some 'first nations' band of clans.
State ownership is not, in itself, either socialist or communist.
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #47 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 7:49am
 
What first nations?
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #48 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:21am
 
Frank wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 4:19pm:
ProudKangaroo wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 3:19pm:
Communism is state ownership, full stop.

How are you struggling with such a basic definition?


It is an idiotic misunderstanding by you, perhaps that's why.

It is common ownership in a COLLECTIVE, a commune. Like a kibbutz.  Wink

State ownership is not communism.


Welcome to the chat.  If you want to barge in uninvited, that's fine, but at least have the courtesy to reply in the full context of the discussion or even just the current exchange.

For something to be considered a communist system, it can't be privately owned, it has to be owned by the state. That doesn't mean everything state-owned is communism, but Indigenous or First Nations ownership of land is, by definition, not communism.

The reason it's framed that way is simple, it's a rhetorical trick.

Most people in any progressive, open society would agree that communism isn't an ideal system, so slapping the label on these moves is a neat way to stir up fear, whip up resentment, and avoid the uncomfortable appearance of punching down at Indigenous Australians or confronting the atrocities committed during colonisation and the building of modern Australia.

If someone wants to object to what's happening around Mt Warning or to efforts at closing the gap, that's their prerogative, but let's not pretend dishonesty about motivations or realities is a legitimate starting point for debate.
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mothra
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #49 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:34am
 
ProudKangaroo wrote on Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:21am:
Frank wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 4:19pm:
ProudKangaroo wrote on Aug 25th, 2025 at 3:19pm:
Communism is state ownership, full stop.

How are you struggling with such a basic definition?


It is an idiotic misunderstanding by you, perhaps that's why.

It is common ownership in a COLLECTIVE, a commune. Like a kibbutz.  Wink

State ownership is not communism.


Welcome to the chat.  If you want to barge in uninvited, that's fine, but at least have the courtesy to reply in the full context of the discussion or even just the current exchange.

For something to be considered a communist system, it can't be privately owned, it has to be owned by the state. That doesn't mean everything state-owned is communism, but Indigenous or First Nations ownership of land is, by definition, not communism.

The reason it's framed that way is simple, it's a rhetorical trick.

Most people in any progressive, open society would agree that communism isn't an ideal system, so slapping the label on these moves is a neat way to stir up fear, whip up resentment, and avoid the uncomfortable appearance of punching down at Indigenous Australians or confronting the atrocities committed during colonisation and the building of modern Australia.

If someone wants to object to what's happening around Mt Warning or to efforts at closing the gap, that's their prerogative, but let's not pretend dishonesty about motivations or realities is a legitimate starting point for debate.


...

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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #50 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:43am
 
Why the Gap Never Closes


Of Australia’s claimed 900,000 Aboriginal-identifying people, as many as 30–40% may have no genuine Aboriginal heritage at all, a concern publicly raised by Nathan Moran, CEO of the Metropolitan Local Aboriginal Land Council, or are self-identified while living entirely outside disadvantaged conditions. This inflation grossly exaggerates the apparent scale of inequality.

Remove this distortion and exclude those Aboriginal people who choose to live in remote and very remote communities, and the realistic Aboriginal population in mainstream Australia is closer to 400,000, most living under the same infrastructure, laws, and services as everyone else. Within this group, measurable differences in education, health, employment, and life expectancy are small and often negligible.

The real, entrenched disadvantage is concentrated among up to 150,000 people, about 25% of the adjusted figure, living in remote or very remote communities (approximately 68,000 in the NT, 62,000 in QLD, and 12,000 in WA).  The persistent gap is concentrated almost entirely within these communities, where cultural norms, kinship obligations, and rejection of mainstream authority create a self-reinforcing barrier. Here, disadvantage is not the result of governmental neglect but of a cultural wall maintained by choice.

If measured correctly, Closing the Gap would recognise that the “gap” in mainstream society is already nearly closed, and that the remaining disparity is the predictable result of voluntary self-exclusion, no amount of additional funding or management can remedy, and which remains effectively closed until voluntary, measurable, and demonstrable community and cultural change occurs.
...

The reality is stark: Closing the Gap has been weaponised into an Aboriginal political tool. Remote and very remote Indigenous communities are structurally incapable of meeting its targets, not through any absence of legal rights, public funding, or government commitment, but through persistent failure at the elder, family, and community level to enforce school attendance, maintain health, ensure the safety and wellbeing of their own community and foster wellbeing. Where there is no functioning economy, participation is impossible, ensuring that the gap will never close.

While communities refuse, resist, or reject the fundamental changes demanded by modernity  and government imposes no requirement, expectation, or obligation, voluntary or mandatory, nor even enforces existing laws such as school attendance, their children are condemned to remain shut out from the opportunities and standards of Australian society.

The truth no one will speak is that those given the most assistance are often the ones who make success impossible, defending the very conditions that keep them in failure.
https://quadrant.org.au/news-opinions/aborigines/why-the-gap-never-closes/
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #51 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:44am
 
Quadrant. Lol.
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #52 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:49am
 
Education, the only path out

The Closing the Gap framework commits governments to achieving parity in education outcomes for Aboriginal Australians. Nowhere is its failure more visible than in the school attendance data for very remote Indigenous communities. The Australian Institute for Teaching and School Leadership (AITSL) reports that in these communities, only 25% of Indigenous primary school students attend regularly (where they meet the 90% attendance benchmark] and by Year 10, this falls to just 13%.

This trajectory signals far more than an education problem. It is not the product of societal neglect, inadequate funding, or a lack of government will, but of chronic failure at the elder, family, and community level to ensure engagement. The absence of consistent adult enforcement of school attendance undermines the educational rights that law and substantial public expenditure have already secured.

Education is the core structural driver on which progress across nearly all Closing the Gap targets depends.  Without consistent school attendance, literacy, and numeracy, young people are locked out of employment opportunities, perpetuating welfare dependency and economic marginalisation.

Poor educational outcomes directly correlate with poorer health literacy, reduced access to preventative healthcare, and higher rates of chronic disease.

They also limit the capacity to engage with legal systems constructively, contributing to overrepresentation in incarceration statistics. The absence of educational attainment erodes hope, aspiration, and the ability to navigate life challenges, feeding into the crisis of youth suicide.
Ibid.
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #53 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:56am
 
The Quadrant.

Overall, we rate Quadrant Magazine Right Biased due to story selection that favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting for opposing the consensus of science and the use of poor sources. (D. Van Zandt 3/25/2018) Updated (02/16/2025)


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quadrant-magazine/
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #54 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:13am
 
mothra wrote on Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:56am:
The Quadrant.

Overall, we rate Quadrant Magazine Right Biased due to story selection that favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting for opposing the consensus of science and the use of poor sources. (D. Van Zandt 3/25/2018) Updated (02/16/2025)


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quadrant-magazine/

Can you dispute any of the points?

No.

Is there anything untrue in the bits I posted?

No.

You are just trying to hide your inability of refuting or countering any of the points by doing a Bbwiyawnesque 'twilight zone'.
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Frank
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #55 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:17am
 
mothra wrote on Aug 26th, 2025 at 9:44am:
Quadrant. Lol.


The objectives of Quadrant and its online and book publishing offshoots are enshrined in the constitution of Quadrant Magazine Ltd, the non-profit company that publishes them. Our principal purpose is the defence of the values, practices, and institutions of a free and open society by fostering literary and cultural activity of the highest standard. In particular, we are committed to the preservation and advancement of the cultural freedom that is the distinctive component of traditional Western culture.

Our principal objective is as relevant today as it was in 1956 when the magazine was founded at the height of the Cold War. Quadrant originated as the journal of the Australian Association for Cultural Freedom. It was part of the international movement known as the Congress for Cultural Freedom that led to the birth of a number of similar publications across the Western intellectual world. So, from its beginnings, Quadrant was dedicated primarily to preserving and enhancing cultural freedom. As long as Quadrant exists, that will define the goal that its editors pursue.

Today, the magazine is a leading Australian journal whose contributors include past Australian Prime Ministers, distinguished philosophers, writers, academics, experts and policy makers. We publish essays on literature, music, art, film, television, theatre, architecture, as well as history, philosophy, religion, politics, Australian society and Western civilisation. Quadrant publishes materials of the highest standard that seek to encompass the cultural traditions that endure within, and enrich, our civilization. The culture we defend derives from the Classical and Christian traditions of Greece, Rome and Jerusalem, as well as those of the British sceptical Enlightenment, especially the writers of eighteenth-century Edinburgh.

Culture grows out of the long experience of contemplating the human condition through literature, art, philosophy and religion. “This has been Quadrant’s position since its beginnings,” our longest serving editor Peter Coleman AO has written, “and that is why it has always known, for example, that poetry matters.” Hence, Quadrant is not just a critic and commentator on the arts but a significant publisher of literary art itself. We publish around 300 poems a year, making it Australia’s most prolific publisher of poetry in magazine format. In terms of the number of pages published in our magazine and online, poetry is our second biggest category, headed only by news and opinion. In 2012 we published the widely acclaimed Quadrant Book of Poetry, an anthology of 487 poems from the magazine selected by our then literary editor, the late, great poet Les Murray. We also publish about 20 short stories a year.

The motives underpinning our efforts are the same as those confirmed by the Charities Definition Inquiry of 2001, which found that the charitable purpose of ‘advancing culture’, including through the arts, is one of the principal means by which a society binds together and transmits its beliefs and standards from one generation to another. Culture and the arts perform this function when they embody, reinforce and celebrate the values of society, when they confirm and exemplify the lessons simultaneously taught by the family, by the formal structures of education, and by the mass media in all their variety. Culture and the arts also provide the most effective means by which society can identify and distinguish itself from others.

In short, at a time when traditional Western and Australian cultural values are under increasing scrutiny and skepticism, we believe the cultural freedom that Quadrant defends and advances through our promotion of literature and the arts performs a critically important social function.
https://quadrant.org.au/about-us/
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #56 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:30am
 
Analysis / Bias

In review, Quadrant frequently uses loaded words in headlines and articles such as Burn, Climate Witches, Burn. This article is also one of many that question whether humans influence climate change. They have also been accused of creating scientific hoaxes. Quadrant usually sources their information but sometimes uses poor sources such as Judith Curry. Essentially, all articles favor the right and conservative causes.


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quadrant-magazine/
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #57 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:34am
 
mothra wrote on Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:30am:
Analysis / Bias

In review, Quadrant frequently uses loaded words in headlines and articles such as Burn, Climate Witches, Burn. This article is also one of many that question whether humans influence climate change. They have also been accused of creating scientific hoaxes. Quadrant usually sources their information but sometimes uses poor sources such as Judith Curry. Essentially, all articles favor the right and conservative causes.


https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quadrant-magazine/


So nothing to dispute what I posted, nothing about Aboriginal disadvantage and its causes, nothing about the inability to close the gap - just hiding behind some irrelevant blather about climate.
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #58 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:46am
 
Frank wrote on Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:13am:
Can you dispute any of the points?

No.

Is there anything untrue in the bits I posted?

No.

You are just trying to hide your inability of refuting or countering any of the points by doing a Bbwiyawnesque 'twilight zone'.


Would you like me to answer those questions?

Let's start by actually identifying the points they've raised. After reading it a few times, I think it's fair to summarise their position as:

- Inflated population numbers - they claim the official Aboriginal population (approx. 900,000) is exaggerated, with up to 30-40% being "not genuinely Aboriginal."

- Disadvantage is "really" only remote - they argue that once you exclude "fake" or "urban" Aboriginal people, the remaining population (~400,000) has outcomes that are nearly equal to non-Indigenous Australians.

- The gap is "already closed" for most - they suggest measurable differences in mainstream (urban/regional) Aboriginal populations are "small and often negligible."

- Culture is to blame for remaining gaps - they say disadvantage in remote communities is due to cultural norms, kinship obligations, and rejection of mainstream authority, not government neglect.

- Closing the Gap is politicised - they argue the policy is "weaponised into an Aboriginal political tool."

Their solution: cultural change, not government action - they conclude that no amount of funding or management will help until Aboriginal communities abandon aspects of their culture and adopt "modern" values.

Before we go any further, can we at least agree, Frank, that these are the actual points they've raised?

And tell me, did you notice anything contradictory about some of those claims?
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Re: Australia's first treaty with first nations
Reply #59 - Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:46am
 
mothra wrote on Aug 26th, 2025 at 10:30am:
Analysis / Bias

In review, Quadrant frequently uses loaded words in headlines and articles such as Burn, Climate Witches, Burn.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/quadrant-magazine/

Since you asked for the article, here it is:
Burn, Climate Witches, Burn
Peter Rees
Mar 24 2018
The Little Ice age was quite severe in Europe from 1550- 1700. After the prosperity and plenty of the medieval warm period, the LIA led to impoverishment, crop failure, starvation and a resurgence in witch burnings. Every misfortune was an excuse to accuse someone of being a witch working under the direction of Satan. Many of these accusations were the result of some calamity caused by an extreme weather event.

For example, in 1626 a hailstorm struck Germany and dropped a metre of hail. Two days later an Arctic front descended on Europe. Rivers froze, grapes on the vine ‘exploded’ and rye and barley crops were destroyed. Then came a severe frost the likes of which had not been seen for 500 years. Because all of this was so unusual it was determined to be ‘unnatural’ and there arose a cry that sorcerers and witches must be responsible and must be punished. Around 5000 were burnt in Germany alone.

It is estimated that across Europe there were at least 50,000 executions during this period, all carried out with the blessing of the educated and privileged. It was dangerous to be a sceptic because those who dissented from the hysteria were inevitably themselves accused of sorcery subject to the same punishments. Thus was any debate stifled.

Legal philosopher Jean Bodin in 1580 insisted that witchcraft was the most terrible problem facing humankind. Bodin championed the international attack against sceptics, such as physician Johann Weyer, who tried to bring some scientific rationality to the discussion by pointing out that “confessions” obtained through torture were both worthless and immoral. In response, Bodin accused Weyer of witchcraft.  Sceptics had to be wrenched out of society, he thundered, with any country tolerating them certain to be struck by plagues, famines and wars.

Sound familiar? If the modern parallels escape you, let us compare the dark past with what has happened over the last 30 years. And if James Cook University’s disgraceful shunning of Professor Peter Ridd comes to mind, so much the better.

Every perceived extreme weather event is attributed the evil CO2 causing global warming which causes the climate to go totally berserk and, of course, it’s those evil white capitalistic CO2 spewing industries which are the devil’s servants.
Global warming-caused climate change is the most terrible problem facing mankind.
Sceptical of the two points above? Well you must be one of those “climate denier”. Burning at the stake is no longer permitted, but being marginalized, ostracized and harassed is perfectly okay.
The scientific method of observation — hypothesis, develop testable predictions, gather data to test predictions, refine, alter or reject hypothesis — is not applicable to global warming “fact”. The “science is settled”, don’t you know, so no debate will be tolerated. Just send more grants, please, so warmists can continue to “prove” something they insist is already beyond dispute. As Macquarie University assures prospective students, the thriving field of climate-change validation opens up “career prospects and further research opportunities”.

Like the witch accusers of the Little Ice Age, warmists call every hurricane, tornado, fire, drought, flood, storm, etc., clear evidence of CO2-induced climate change. However, there is a mountain of evidence to show that extreme weather events have not increased over the past fifty-or-so years.

Astrophysicist Sallie Baliunas, who would have been burned in those former days of ignorance, fear and vindictive misplaced righteousness, talks of superstition’s tyranny then and now:
https://youtu.be/wcAy4sOcS5M?si=Sn1RI6YnKVjK0c41

Those who reject history’s lessons are, as they say, forever condemned to repeat them.
https://quadrant.org.au/news-opinions/climate-change/burn-climate-witches-burn/

You silly numpties stamp 'bias' on anything that doesn't fully agree with your own chants in your echo chambers.

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