Australian Politics Forum - Sovereign Citizenship?

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88684 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Sovereign Citizenship? Reply #75 - Aug 21^st, 2025 at 7:48pm Thanks, compadre. I'll look at those after the footy. Now in my one Rugby match against New Zealand... not official ...
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #76 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:11pm

Here's one of these sovereign citizens giving the idea a bad name...

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/two-officers-killed-one-injured-in-shoo...

"Two officers killed, one injured in shooting in Porepunkah
Two police officers have been killed and another was injured in a shooting at a rural property in Victoria's alpine region."

The guy identifies as a sovereign citizen... he's now on the run and being hunted....

Another one....

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #77 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:21pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:11pm:

Here's one of these sovereign citizens giving the idea a bad name...

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/two-officers-killed-one-injured-in-shoo...

"Two officers killed, one injured in shooting in Porepunkah
Two police officers have been killed and another was injured in a shooting at a rural property in Victoria's alpine region."

The guy identifies as a sovereign citizen... he's now on the run and being hunted....

Another one....

Not a surprise given 'sovereign citizens' claim laws don't apply to them and claim law enforcement is a 'breach' of their 'sovereignty'.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #78 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:28pm

So back to my original thesis - what is it that drives people to adopt that position... then add to that the coming 31/8 marches of discontent...

What are all the reasons for so many - starting with the loopy left, deciding to take over the country in one way or another?

This is really a big issue of government and governance... why is the winter of our discontent growing and growing and expanding more and more across social groups of all kinds, and why are some becoming outright violent and carrying weapons?

Add to that the punks out of control more and more and using weapons.....

Where did it all begin........ well - I know.... the causes are manifold - and many of them are in that poll on 31/8 marches....

Your turn.....

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16038 Gender:	Re: Sovereign Citizenship? Reply #79 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:35pm Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:28pm: So back to my original thesis - what is it that drives people to adopt that position... Are you excusing the committing of crimes? Is domestic violence a result of women's lippines, you think?
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #80 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 8:25pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:35pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:28pm:

So back to my original thesis - what is it that drives people to adopt that position...

Are you excusing the committing of crimes?

Is domestic violence a result of women's lippines, you think?

Something wrong with your mind, boy? I'm raising questions on why this is occurring - and you go off on some strange mothra-like tangent..

English not your first language?

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #81 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 8:29pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 8:25pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:35pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:28pm:

So back to my original thesis - what is it that drives people to adopt that position...

Are you excusing the committing of crimes?

Is domestic violence a result of women's lippines, you think?

Something wrong with your mind, boy? I'm raising questions on why this is occurring - and you go off on some strange mothra-like tangent..

English not your first language?

Their mothers loved them too much... or not enough?

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #82 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 9:58pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 8:29pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 8:25pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:35pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 7:28pm:

So back to my original thesis - what is it that drives people to adopt that position...

Are you excusing the committing of crimes?

Is domestic violence a result of women's lippines, you think?

Something wrong with your mind, boy? I'm raising questions on why this is occurring - and you go off on some strange mothra-like tangent..

English not your first language?

Their mothers loved them too much... or not enough?

Could be - too much but in the wrong way? Kids farmed out to strangers to be socialised and then being treated to everything to compensate?

You are thinking...

I took over with my 6 month old when his mother went back to making movies, and when she was away all day and came home, he literally turned his nose on her... she left him... and he wasn't happy. Children are very thinking people ... they do have their ways and their real needs - and maybe those needs are not being met in our modern disintegrating society.

There are some deep and underlying reasons for the actions of many of all kinds and on all 'sides' ... as thinking human beings we need to sort those out and spread the word - not fight and argue among one another.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #83 - Aug 26^th, 2025 at 11:04pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 9:58pm:

he literally turned his nose on her... she left him... and he wasn't happy. Children are very thinking people ...

Not that they're thinking people... children have an instinctive terror of abandonment and, without the capacity to fully reason, that terror morphs into anger when they're reunited.

Jewish kids who were sent to Britain for their own safety by their parents all reported a sense of abandonment, and the younger they were, the more they felt it.

The lucky (very few) kids whose parents had survived and were eventually reunited with their parents, spoke of irrational feelings of anger at them for having sent them away.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #84 - Aug 27^th, 2025 at 12:51am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 11:04pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 26^th, 2025 at 9:58pm:

he literally turned his nose on her... she left him... and he wasn't happy. Children are very thinking people ...

Not that they're thinking people... children have an instinctive terror of abandonment and, without the capacity to fully reason, that terror morphs into anger when they're reunited.

Jewish kids who were sent to Britain for their own safety by their parents all reported a sense of abandonment, and the younger they were, the more they felt it.

The lucky (very few) kids whose parents had survived and were eventually reunited with their parents, spoke of irrational feelings of anger at them for having sent them away.

Yes - but if you put that in the context of the 'boot-strapping' of the human mind and psyche - I call it 'thinking' and you call it purely instinctual. When you see that thinking is based on the instinctual, you arrive at the position of seeing that people function from that basis in either the way of forming social ideas and concepts and 'mores and values' - or they do not.

You see that every day with the people you meet and see. An astute person can see the 'path' on which people are 'walking'. You must know yourself that you can see the difference between a clear junkie and a person who exists by the rules; between any outlier and the majority - who are often surprised that such people as the Outlier even exist.

The point here is that every single social structure of 'civilised man' is based on that basic instinctual thinking... rationalised by thought and discussion and open review of all ideas related to it.

The rational man says - 'do not kill' ... instinct says 'sometimes you must' - and not only that, but when the lines of 'civilised behaviour' are blurred or distorted or even non-existent (see Hamas and Gazans), an individual can and will see enemies deserving of death on any side at whim.

THAT is why we have civilisations built on a basic majority consent to controls, and not just left open to every whim of the person with the biggest fist. At least that's the theory, and why you should see why I oppose those social structures that do rely on the biggest fist, or the loudest megaphone or whatever.

When in wonder - when in doubt - run in circles - scream and shout.

This is a very big issue.... far too big for a simple internet forum.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41056 Gender:	Re: Sovereign Citizenship? Reply #85 - Aug 27^th, 2025 at 6:31am Sovereign Citizens are nutbags Conspiracy theorists.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #86 - Aug 27^th, 2025 at 7:16am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 27^th, 2025 at 12:51am:

Yes - but if you put that in the context of the 'boot-strapping' of the human mind and psyche - I call it 'thinking' and you call it purely instinctual. When you see that thinking is based on the instinctual, you arrive at the position of seeing that people function from that basis in either the way of forming social ideas and concepts and 'mores and values' - or they do not.

Well... you're making light of good parenting and healthy role models, but it seems personality and character are largely a product of nature.

Having said that, the congenital predisposition towards psychopathy does not necessarily express itself when healthy, functional parents raise the 'psychopathic' child... Also, there's evidence of a link to high lead exposure and psychopathic/ abnormally aggressive behaviour.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #87 - Aug 27^th, 2025 at 12:57pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 27^th, 2025 at 7:16am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 27^th, 2025 at 12:51am:

Yes - but if you put that in the context of the 'boot-strapping' of the human mind and psyche - I call it 'thinking' and you call it purely instinctual. When you see that thinking is based on the instinctual, you arrive at the position of seeing that people function from that basis in either the way of forming social ideas and concepts and 'mores and values' - or they do not.

Well... you're making light of good parenting and healthy role models, but it seems personality and character are largely a product of nature.

Having said that, the congenital predisposition towards psychopathy does not necessarily express itself when healthy, functional parents raise the 'psychopathic' child... Also, there's evidence of a link to high lead exposure and psychopathic/ abnormally aggressive behaviour.

You are not following me - I am saying that our 'culture' as formalised comes from the fundamental instincts of any and every human being - and that - sadly in this world - some 'cultures remain very primitive in their thinking for countless reasons. Nothing about 'parenting' - that comes in later in the discussion.

I agree - there is a pretty reliable set of data that indicates that 'schizophrenia' largely develops in adolescence, though I've observed, from having a schiz brother, that there are definitely early signs. Lead - yes - there is a very serious history of that.

Good parenting and role models can work to ameliorate such things, true - so I have to wonder why it is that so many people go wrong these days... and that is why I am exploring the underlying ills of this country - to see what is happening to push people towards extremes all the time.

Australia has long had a sort of 'frontier' mentality - sort of a wild west approach to life - and that still goes on in many ways... but the difference these days is how very set people are becoming in their highly extreme thinking - such as that Freeman character down Victoria way and a lot of others from all walks, not just his - who think that they are victims of the state etc (they may be right in some ways, just not the way they think) and that the state is intent on persecuting them.

You know the types of groups I am talking about - some 'transgender' types who are often quite mentally unwell; some Aborigines who have been raised to fight for life via abuse and neglect and such; even a lot of your 'multi-cultural' types, coming from a 'kill or be killed' country, do this; and your average hodge-podge ancestry 'Westie' is much the same in assuming they are in some war zone with enemies all around them - gangs and 'other neighbourhoods' and such, and have a readiness to fight etc at the drop of a hat.

All of that is escalating at this time into higher and higher levels of violence....

I'm giving people a chance to discuss WHY this is happening...

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #88 - Aug 27^th, 2025 at 1:12pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 27^th, 2025 at 12:57pm:

You are not following me - I am saying that our 'culture' as formalised comes from the fundamental instincts of any and every human being - and that - sadly in this world - some 'cultures remain very primitive in their thinking for countless reasons. Nothing about 'parenting' - that comes in later in the discussion.

Ok... But that's as redundant as saying that a clear day's sky is blue wherever you go.

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Gnads

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #89 - Aug 27^th, 2025 at 1:21pm

Sophia wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 8:45am:

Gnads wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 7:40am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 9:24pm:

Just watched Four Corners about 'sovereign citizens' - interesting.

I will lead you into discussion here ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-18/sovereign-citizen-movement-law-court-four...

I will hold my views until I see what you - my learned and unlearned colleagues - think of this.

Without looking at your link(which all I'll do later) everything I've seen by individuals who have called themselves sovereign citizens is about running foul of the law.

i.e. driving unregistered vehicles, driving unlicensed, being caught shoplifting, failing to provide a sample for alcohol/drug testing, refusing to give any sort of ID etc, etc

They make statements like- "I do not consent", "I am or As a living man/woman" - I'm not driving this vehicle I'm travelling" - claiming that Police work for them and attempt to give them orders or even say "I'm arresting you" etc, etc, etc,

Those 3 crazy Trains from Wieambilla who shot those coppers were in that Sovereign Citizens mindset as well as being former religious nuts.

So everyone I've seen speaking about it has either been a smartarse taunting police or someone trying to stall off being punished for breaking traffic regulations or laws.

Have a look -

Wiki-
Quote:

The sovereign citizen movement (sometimes abbreviated as SovCits) is a loose group of anti-government activists, conspiracy theorists, vexatious litigants, tax protesters and financial scammers found mainly in English-speaking common law countries—the United States, Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, and New Zealand. Sovereign citizens have their own pseudolegal belief system based on misinterpretations of common law, and claim not to be subject to any government statutes unless they consent to them.

So yeah nah to Sovereign Citizens BS. I've had a brush with it a little too close to home.

The increasing rise in Flat Earthers around also belongs in this category of nutters.

Sure, there’s erring humans in just one group only?
And no politicians take advantage of thinking they are above the law?

I’ve too seen the irresponsible spoilers taking advantage of the sovcits with what they are trying to do is make those in power and unjust be more accountable. Remember those quips born from authitarian injustices such as “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”
It irks me when anyone acts outside of responsibility. Government, coppers, or a few from SovCits etc etc etc tends to make up tar them all with the same brush.

Did you know, you can cash in your birth certificate for the birth weight in gold?
Hence another quote “worth your weight in gold”

Where can you do that? If it were true everyone would be there cashing in. Grin

I don't know that Australia has any gold reserves in the country .... what we may have is held overseas.

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