Australian Politics Forum - Sovereign Citizenship?

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88646 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Sovereign Citizenship? Aug 18^th, 2025 at 9:24pm Just watched Four Corners about 'sovereign citizens' - interesting. I will lead you into discussion here ... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-18/sovereign-citizen-movement-law-court-four... I will hold my views until I see what you - my learned and unlearned colleagues - think of this.
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Daves2017

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #1 - Aug 18^th, 2025 at 10:29pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-18/sovereign-citizen-movement-law-court-four...

Very interesting topic. I just read the above link today.

It’s a long term strategy that they are employing and our judges and politicians are running very scared.

Imagine if the people we pay had to do as the taxpayers directed!

I can appreciate their fear

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Unless you can find a way to earn a minimum of $300000 a year in Australia you’re screwed.

Don’t even think about being able to afford children at that bare minimum threshold.

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Daves2017

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #2 - Aug 18^th, 2025 at 10:33pm

“David Heilpern recalls the first time he encountered pseudolaw arguments in his courtroom.

"A smattering of people came before me talking what I thought was an entirely different legal language, which was along the lines of, 'I am not that person. You must capitalise my name, you have no authority. You didn't take an oath over right to a jury,' and sort of a mishmash of what we now know as sovereign citizen approaches," he says.

"I just was quite staggered and surprised. Where has this come from?"

“ ABC

Of course he was shocked, how dare the people of Australia who pay his wages dare question his absolute authority!

Because in reality, he has none?

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Unless you can find a way to earn a minimum of $300000 a year in Australia you’re screwed.

Don’t even think about being able to afford children at that bare minimum threshold.

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Sophia Gold Member Offline Posts: 9134	Re: Sovereign Citizenship? Reply #3 - Aug 18^th, 2025 at 10:48pm There’s a lot of our so called public servants that are not serving the public, nor handling our public funds/taxes well and need to be held accountable.
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88646 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: Sovereign Citizenship? Reply #4 - Aug 18^th, 2025 at 11:39pm Interesting.. very interesting.
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Yadda

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #5 - Aug 18^th, 2025 at 11:58pm

Sophia wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 10:48pm:

There’s a lot of our so called public servants
that are not serving the public,
nor handling our public funds/taxes well
and need to be held accountable.

As a citizen, i'm required ['by law'] to attend to vote, in State elections and Federal elections.

Why so ???

Is electing bureaucrats and 'representatives' of such importance [to anyone but, bureaucrats and 'representatives'] ?

If after doing so, i am then continually reminded, that i can be trusted, with no [or very little lawful] civic authority myself ?

The bureaucrats and 'representatives' we have elected, we are assured, will manage [well] the important affairs of the nation,
on our behalf.

But do they [....manage the affairs of our nation well] ?

.

Many of our bureaucrats and our 'representatives'....work in resplendent 'work' residences and many, in palatial offices.....

Many of our bureaucrats and our 'representatives' are appointed, their own servants, to feed, to furnish all of their 'official' needs, organising official travel itineraries.

Many of them also have armed officers to protect them, from threats.

And, then, how goes...their management of the important affairs of this nation, ....on our behalf ?

WE SEE......
Members of criminal gangs REGULARLY murder citizens in our cities and in our suburbs.

This nation is awash with illicit, and deadly, psychotropic ['party'] drugs.

Murderers walk our cities and suburbs, many, being armed with prohibited firearms.

This, to me, sounds like a nation, where our governmental institutions have abdicated responsibility,
for maintaining the proper management, AND PEACE AND SAFETY, in the communities of our nation.

And yet.......our bureaucrats and our 'representatives' seem to 'have no want' [or is it no competence ?], to properly serve and protect.......those persons [law abiding citizens of this nation] whom our bureaucrats and our 'representatives' claim, to responsibly 'represent' and serve [in the authority of the 'State'].

.

Just for one issue, in Australia today.....why do our elected bureaucrats and our 'representatives' refuse to permanently remove, violent criminals from our communities ?

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE.....
De-bar and replace the soft-cock judges.

Introduce and pass, 'serious offender laws' [in our parliaments]......e.g. after a second [serious offence] conviction, the next sentence becomes an 'iron-clad' 20 years 'inside'.

Build more prisons, to 'accommodate' violent career criminals......and to be able to permanently remove them from our cities and in our suburbs and towns.

.

Yadda said somewhere....
Quote:

I come back to my argument about the wisdom, of assuming, in this PC world, that it is ok for 'sheep' and 'wolves' to share the same 'meadow'.

The opinion of many, is that it is OK.

I disagree.

I say that 'sheep' and 'wolves' need to be separated.

'Wolves' in the 'meadow' are not going to respect the right of 'sheep'.....to not be accosted or killed, by the 'wolves'.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Gnads

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #6 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 7:40am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 9:24pm:

Just watched Four Corners about 'sovereign citizens' - interesting.

I will lead you into discussion here ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-18/sovereign-citizen-movement-law-court-four...

I will hold my views until I see what you - my learned and unlearned colleagues - think of this.

Without looking at your link(which all I'll do later) everything I've seen by individuals who have called themselves sovereign citizens is about running foul of the law.

i.e. driving unregistered vehicles, driving unlicensed, being caught shoplifting, failing to provide a sample for alcohol/drug testing, refusing to give any sort of ID etc, etc

They make statements like- "I do not consent", "I am or As a living man/woman" - I'm not driving this vehicle I'm travelling" - claiming that Police work for them and attempt to give them orders or even say "I'm arresting you" etc, etc, etc,

Those 3 crazy Trains from Wieambilla who shot those coppers were in that Sovereign Citizens mindset as well as being former religious nuts.

So everyone I've seen speaking about it has either been a smartarse taunting police or someone trying to stall off being punished for breaking traffic regulations or laws.

Have a look -

Wiki-
Quote:

The sovereign citizen movement (sometimes abbreviated as SovCits) is a loose group of anti-government activists, conspiracy theorists, vexatious litigants, tax protesters and financial scammers found mainly in English-speaking common law countries—the United States, Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, and New Zealand. Sovereign citizens have their own pseudolegal belief system based on misinterpretations of common law, and claim not to be subject to any government statutes unless they consent to them.

So yeah nah to Sovereign Citizens BS. I've had a brush with it a little too close to home.

The increasing rise in Flat Earthers around also belongs in this category of nutters.

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« Last Edit: Aug 19^th, 2025 at 7:47am by Gnads »

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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MeisterEckhart Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16038 Gender:	Re: Sovereign Citizenship? Reply #7 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 7:54am Sovereign citizens... Monty Python's People's Front of Judea meets Scientology.
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Sophia

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #8 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 8:45am

Gnads wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 7:40am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 9:24pm:

Just watched Four Corners about 'sovereign citizens' - interesting.

I will lead you into discussion here ...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-18/sovereign-citizen-movement-law-court-four...

I will hold my views until I see what you - my learned and unlearned colleagues - think of this.

Without looking at your link(which all I'll do later) everything I've seen by individuals who have called themselves sovereign citizens is about running foul of the law.

i.e. driving unregistered vehicles, driving unlicensed, being caught shoplifting, failing to provide a sample for alcohol/drug testing, refusing to give any sort of ID etc, etc

They make statements like- "I do not consent", "I am or As a living man/woman" - I'm not driving this vehicle I'm travelling" - claiming that Police work for them and attempt to give them orders or even say "I'm arresting you" etc, etc, etc,

Those 3 crazy Trains from Wieambilla who shot those coppers were in that Sovereign Citizens mindset as well as being former religious nuts.

So everyone I've seen speaking about it has either been a smartarse taunting police or someone trying to stall off being punished for breaking traffic regulations or laws.

Have a look -

Wiki-
Quote:

The sovereign citizen movement (sometimes abbreviated as SovCits) is a loose group of anti-government activists, conspiracy theorists, vexatious litigants, tax protesters and financial scammers found mainly in English-speaking common law countries—the United States, Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, and New Zealand. Sovereign citizens have their own pseudolegal belief system based on misinterpretations of common law, and claim not to be subject to any government statutes unless they consent to them.

So yeah nah to Sovereign Citizens BS. I've had a brush with it a little too close to home.

The increasing rise in Flat Earthers around also belongs in this category of nutters.

Sure, there’s erring humans in just one group only?
And no politicians take advantage of thinking they are above the law?

I’ve too seen the irresponsible spoilers taking advantage of the sovcits with what they are trying to do is make those in power and unjust be more accountable. Remember those quips born from authitarian injustices such as “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”
It irks me when anyone acts outside of responsibility. Government, coppers, or a few from SovCits etc etc etc tends to make up tar them all with the same brush.

Did you know, you can cash in your birth certificate for the birth weight in gold?
Hence another quote “worth your weight in gold”

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #9 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 8:54am

Sophia wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 8:45am:

And no politicians take advantage of thinking they are above the law?

There's a difference between politicians thinking they're above the law and 'sovereign citizens' stating categorically that the law does not apply to them.

As one bloke on the Four Corners report said: 'Sovereign citizen' is an oxymoron ".

He's right... a sovereign is not a citizen... the sovereign, being the font of all law, is (technically) not bound by it... This was the argument of King Charles I to the Parliamentarians, "I would know by what power I am called hither. I would know by what authority, I mean lawful authority".

Saddam Hussein tried the same argument.

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Sophia

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #10 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 9:01am

Just thinking about how many of us really know our rights?

Recently, a homeless man killed a pregnant woman and her partner, cutting his head off.
Police apprehended him and the judge let him out without being charged because the cop must’ve forgotten to read him his rights.

I’m asking… were the deceased allowed to exercise their rights to live?

And those machete attacks… yet more and more happenings… caught and let out on bail 60 times.

Where are our rights to defend ourselves?
Where are our absolute rights to being safe, in shopping centres and especially in our own homes for crying out loud!

We complain, nothing is done. We are powerless?
Yet sovcits try to make these judges accountable.
The voice for us.
That’s why I’m not against them.

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Sophia

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #11 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 9:06am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 8:54am:

Sophia wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 8:45am:

And no politicians take advantage of thinking they are above the law?

There's a difference between politicians thinking they're above the law and 'sovereign citizens' stating categorically that the law does not apply to them.

As one bloke on the Four Corners report said: 'Sovereign citizen' is an oxymoron ".

He's right... a sovereign is not a citizen... the sovereign, being the font of all law, is (technically) not bound by it... This was the argument of King Charles I to the Parliamentarians, "I would know by what power I am called hither. I would know by what authority, I mean lawful authority".

Saddam Hussein tried the same argument.

I’m certain many, whether in a group or public service or whatever, break laws every day.
Being primitive and not respecting boundaries is uncalled for.
I’m all for making them accountable.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #12 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 9:12am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 8:54am:

He's right... a sovereign is not a citizen... the sovereign, being the font of all law, is (technically) not bound by it... This was the argument of King Charles I to the Parliamentarians, "I would know by what power I am called hither. I would know by what authority, I mean lawful authority".

The (rump) Parliament executed Charles I anyway, arguing that the man, Charles Stuart, was not a sovereign; he was the man holding the office of sovereign who had breached his duty to keep the sovereign's peace by making war on his subjects.

In other words, the person of the sovereign is not above the law and cannot exempt himself from the consequences of breaking the law.

'Sovereign citizens' breach the law when they breach the peace, by which we all rely on law to uphold. In that context, 'sovereign citizens' could be treated as treasonous.

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freediver

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #13 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 9:47am

Daves2017 wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 10:33pm:

“David Heilpern recalls the first time he encountered pseudolaw arguments in his courtroom.

"A smattering of people came before me talking what I thought was an entirely different legal language, which was along the lines of, 'I am not that person. You must capitalise my name, you have no authority. You didn't take an oath over right to a jury,' and sort of a mishmash of what we now know as sovereign citizen approaches," he says.

"I just was quite staggered and surprised. Where has this come from?"

“ ABC

Of course he was shocked, how dare the people of Australia who pay his wages dare question his absolute authority!

Because in reality, he has none?

He has the authority to lock them. And probably did.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: Sovereign Citizenship?
Reply #14 - Aug 19^th, 2025 at 9:54am

And 'Sovereign Citizens' establishing a judiciary through which they 'convict' a sitting Australian Prime Minister...

If we're going to play hard with law, it could be argued that they're attempting to subvert the Australian judiciary, which could probably have them convicted and sentenced to hefty jail terms...

Of course, if it came down to the wire, given that they're likely weak as piss, they'd probably argue that it was theatre... art... and not intended to be taken seriously.

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