I think we need a strong international organisation to promote democracy.

Something like the UN, but without the dictators.

Or NATO, but broader - including the east asian, pacific, south american democracies and perhaps India, South Africa and Botswana.

The UN, being forced to represent dictators, is not allowed to promote democracy. It is allowed to promote "good governance" but is not allowed to equate that with democracy. Authoritarian regimes such as China a making good use of this for propaganda, as it legitimises them. The UN is also toothless. If no-one is prepared to act on it's rulings, which is typically the case, nothing happens.

There are plenty of smaller organisations that could form the basis of this organisation, or the inspiration for it, but none with serious multigovernment backing (eg: https://www.idea.int/).

The purpose or mandate would be something like:

1) Encourage new membership by helping the "sort of" democracies become functioning democracies - by promoting freedom of the press and getting rid of other limitations on freedom that threaten democracy, and laying out a clear path to membership. Bypassing the government (which would tend to run you round in circles) and communicating directly with the people.

2) Calling out democratic backsliding, which seems to be a growing issue, even in the US.

3) Weaponising trade (as an alternative to war). Stronger backing for trade sanctions on Russia for example, like Trump is trying to do by threatening India with tariffs for buying Russian oil. Promoting free trade among democracies, but as a secondary agenda to promoting democracy. A bit like what Trump is threatening, but a more coherent and cooperative approach. The logic behind this is that promoting freedom and democracy is a far more effective long term way of generating collective wealth than free trade, especially in the current situation organisations such as the UN are legitimising and being exploited by anti-democratic forces.

4) Military intervention in failed states and in situations where people overthrow the government to establish democracy, to assist with the transition, advise on setting up a new constitution etc. This would help to overcome the processes captured by Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson - why it is so difficult to transition from dictatorship to democracy, because so much of the ingrained culture in the country works against that outcome.

It would provide an alternative to China's attempts to set up a trade and political block among mostly anti democratic regimes.

freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 6:58am:


You can assume whatever you like but as is usually the case with you, you'll most likely be wrong

AI seems good at telling you what people think, but not making decisions. It can only parrot back at you what people are saying on the internet, and has an inevitable bias based on that. I think the bigger risk with AI is that it will become better than traditional propaganda at manipulating people - both to buy things and to vote certain ways.

But the answer to both is still too give people the vote. AI will not give us a benign dictatorship. It will give us whatever form of dictatorship the people who own the AI, and the data used to train it, want to have. Which is the one that gives them the most money. People have always been the Achilles heel of democracy, but no-one has ever come with with a better alternative.

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Nothing has changed. Politicians have always been able to spread lies about their opponents. It's actually easier today to figure out whether it is true. For example, you could go to the party website and check their policy, or email your local party rep. You don't have to believe every facebook meme you come across any more than you have to believe what some bloke down at the pub tells you. Maybe we will even find a use for the mainstream media.

Ummmmmm -

it depends on what sort of democracy?

In Australia Albo got only one third of the primary vote
yet has a thumping landslide majority in Parliament.  WTF?

The Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) - North Korea -
calls itself a democracy.  WTF?

Democratic Russian electoral employees went to people's houses
in the Donbas and other areas of Ukraine and got
people to vote while they had sub machine guns pointed at them.
That sounds fair.  WTF?

In democratic Russia Putin kills his opposition candidates.  WTF?

In democratic China the CCP has only one party.  WTF?

aquascoot wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 5:31pm:



Die partei ist Hitler. Hitler aber ist Deutschland wie Deutschland Hitler ist. Hitler sieg heil.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2025 at 10:33am:


I disagree: and as a matter of a fact, democracy is NOT listed among the 30 articles of the UN UDHR.

...presumably because it's "the worst form of government" (that's the bit Churchill got right, even if it's an exaggeration)...

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Well, democracy doesn't produce the goods in most countries, so dictatorship is the unfortunate outcome (..it's actually cuased by a failing mainstream economic system)

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No; the UN, armed with the machinery to f defend the UN UDHR,   is the correct body.

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Because most countries are in economic distress, as noted above.

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Correct, because government by 50% plus 1 of self-interested individuals (as in the democracies) , is not a good recipe for good govervance, and hardly represent the much-vaunted universal franchise.   

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China says it's instituting common prosperity (sadly lacking in the West); the picture will become clearer by the end of the decade.

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Meanwhile young people are losing faith in democracy:

https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/youthanddemocracy

"Faith in democracy: Millenials are the most disillusioned generation in living memory" 

...unlike comfortable, ideologically blind conservatives like you....


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See above: millenials want to buy houses like their parents did, not fuss about 'membership of democracy'

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And WHY  is the US - the "Beacon on the Hill" - backsliding?
Calling it out won't help, without that understanding.

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Russia is already sanctioned to the hilt by the West, the next step is India and China....but China has the rare earth's supply on which the US currently relies (just like the US controls distribution of best chip tech); Trump HAD to come to an agreement with China because of that fact.   

Again you are ignoring economic realities and fussing about "democracy"....

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"It's the economy, stupid" - the failed IMF/world bank US led system, and even the US has now bailed out of the WTO free-trade rules based on your beloved free markets.   

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China is attempting to trade with the Global South - ie most countries of the world, as well as the EU, US and Oz who have discovered they can't compete with China...

btw, re this 'pro democracy' guy seeking refuge in Oz: is he seeking independence for HK - a Chinese province, - a goal which is treasonous?

In any case, most HKers are getting on with 'getting rich', not fussing about 'democracy'.

aquascoot wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 6:00pm:


The superior man has no limitations, you've spent too long sitting on the couch eating pizza and drinking coke. Grab a carrot, grab a stick!

Bobby. wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 6:26pm:


A better IF game is what if he had not invaded Russia and didn't believe Britain could have been swayed his way and and took Britain first up? No British or American support for Russia... Not that IFs can ever mean anything after the fact.

aquascoot wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 7:24pm:


Moves into realestate, tries the presidency, not fulfilling enough, transcends it all and sits on the couch with Janine? Pizza, Coke, romcoms, he's smashing it.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2025 at 10:33am:

So, no China, then... Would you exclude Russia as well?

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This is the result of single member electorates.

But no democracy avoids this problem. There can only be one government and one government policy, no matter how many different opinions the people have.

Single member electorates and preferential voting. Was this your first election, Booby? Labor at least increased its primary vote.

You are the poof.

He got the majority of votes in a majority of seats after preferences were distributed.

.......just like the democracy which we all enjoy in Australia, in 2025 ??


freediver wrote on Aug 18^th, 2025 at 6:58am:




The endorsement of democracy is the endorsement, of mob rule.
- ?

The essence of a democracy is mob rule.
- ?


"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
- C. S. Lewis
https://www.azquotes.com/author/8805-C_S_Lewis


"Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
- John Adams


Peace without freedom, is oppression.
Peace without justice, is a tyranny.
- European leader [on tv, 2023-Sep-13  Wed,  7:23 am]


A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
- Gary Strand


He that makes himself a sheep,     shall be eaten by wolves.
- ?


A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.
A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.
A Constitutional Republic:  Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden, and    The sheep    are armed.
- ?

freediver wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 4:40pm:


freediver,

How about....

If the democracy......which we are all 'enjoying',
in Australia, in 2025, is 'as good as it can get',
......then i'm deeply disappointed.

Yadda wrote on Aug 19^th, 2025 at 5:05pm:


There are plenty of ways to improve it, but none of them overcome the more fundamental problems you raise. And also, none of them are particularly relevant to my suggestion for an international organisation for promoting democracy. Most of the world still lives under some kind of dictatorship or hybrid form of government, and the benefits for humanity that are yet to be realised there far outweigh the improvements to be had by tweaking the established democracies. Also, established democracies have internal mechanisms that should be far better options for achieving those changes.

Here is a thread I started on what I see as the best form of democracy:

https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1358051073

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Why?

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Trump is more a reflection of the flaws in America's electoral system, which falls far short of ours.

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So what should be done about it? Deny them more agency, or give them more?

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That does not require democratic reform. It merely requires people to vote for it.

Democracy..... where everyone pulls together for the nation's good (....cough):

(9 News, on the war criminal Netanyahu  calling Albo "weak")

[i]Opposition Leader Sussan Ley said that while the prime minister deserved respect, he had "mismanaged international relationships".

"This is a direct consequence of bad decisions he and his government have taken that do not advance Australia's interests," she said.

But the opposition leader in Israel, Yair Lapid, has instead pointed the finger at Netanyahu for souring relations.

"The thing that strengthens a leader in the democratic world today most is a confrontation with Netanyahu, the most politically toxic leader in the Western world. It is unclear why Bibi is in such a hurry to give the Australian prime minister this gift," Lapid said on X.

....

Susan Ley doesn't care about the Gaza slaughter, only the Hamas slaughter caused by the UN''s failure to recognize Palestine in 1947 when it recognised Israel.

[Ofcourse you simply ignored my critique of democracy; see #12]