Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 ... 15 16 17 18 
Send Topic Print
There are NO races (Read 5464 times)
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14219
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #240 - May 2nd, 2025 at 11:15am
 
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 10:24am:
Recognising the otherness of another body is not to 'recoil'. You are polarizing unnecessarily.

The otherness of a twin is just an illustration that even a body that is almost exactly the same in its physiology and physiognomy as the self is recognised as other. There is no 'trigger'. Just recognition of the obvious.  The point I am making is that the 'Othering' is often grossly overstated. To recognise another body as another body is so natural and inevitable that it scarcely needs stating. To frame that natural and unavoidable recognition into 'triggered to recoil from the Othering' is framing the issue in a grotesquely overstated manner. Of course another body is another body. There is no recoiling being triggered.


In group and out group is constantly shifting depending on context of the grouping, classification. This is scarcely remarkable, either.
Zoological classification can be Linnean or it can be in as in the Chinese Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge.

The process of recognition in sighted people begins with the triggering of the nerve-link between the optic nerves and the amygdala after a change in the visual field. This occurs even when the subject is presented with pictures of unknown others.

This recoil can be detected relatively long before conscious recognition, and enhancing/inhibiting processes in the higher brain processes are triggered to moderate, interrupt or cancel the amygdala's response.

Recoil can be triggered whenever and whatever outgroup traits are detected, including even the wearing of sports attire of a rival team.

Generally, the amygdala's response is moderated unless it confirms a fixed bias in the higher brain, which can enhance the amygdala's response towards hostile/evasive action.

The higher brains of those commonly known as 'racists' do not cancel the amygdala's initial response to the 'otherness' of the perceived outgroup member.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 49896
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #241 - May 2nd, 2025 at 11:37am
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 11:15am:
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 10:24am:
Recognising the otherness of another body is not to 'recoil'. You are polarizing unnecessarily.

The otherness of a twin is just an illustration that even a body that is almost exactly the same in its physiology and physiognomy as the self is recognised as other. There is no 'trigger'. Just recognition of the obvious.  The point I am making is that the 'Othering' is often grossly overstated. To recognise another body as another body is so natural and inevitable that it scarcely needs stating. To frame that natural and unavoidable recognition into 'triggered to recoil from the Othering' is framing the issue in a grotesquely overstated manner. Of course another body is another body. There is no recoiling being triggered.


In group and out group is constantly shifting depending on context of the grouping, classification. This is scarcely remarkable, either.
Zoological classification can be Linnean or it can be in as in the Chinese Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge.

The process of recognition in sighted people begins with the triggering of the nerve-link between the optic nerves and the amygdala after a change in the visual field. This occurs even when the subject is presented with pictures of unknown others.

This recoil can be detected relatively long before conscious recognition, and enhancing/inhibiting processes in the higher brain processes are triggered to moderate, interrupt or cancel the amygdala's response.

Recoil can be triggered whenever and whatever outgroup traits are detected, including even the wearing of sports attire of a rival team.

Generally, the amygdala's response is moderated unless it confirms a fixed bias in the higher brain, which can enhance the amygdala's response towards hostile/evasive action.

The higher brains of those commonly known as 'racists' do not cancel the amygdala's initial response to the 'otherness' of the perceived outgroup member.




And how do non-racists control the amygdala's initial response?  And how do racists choose not to control their dastardly amygdala's initial response?

You are slipping from is to ought without realising it. You have forgotten your Hume.

Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14219
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #242 - May 2nd, 2025 at 12:05pm
 
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 11:37am:
And how do non-racists control the amygdala's initial response?  And how do racists choose not to control their dastardly amygdala's initial response?

You are slipping from is to ought without realising it. You have forgotten your Hume.


What happens after the amygdala's response depends on personal experience, upbringing, preference, familiarity, etc, of the perceived other.

That a person is perceived as an outgroup member becomes less important than the higher brain's reinforcing that the other is a danger or threat, or benign.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 49896
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #243 - May 2nd, 2025 at 1:01pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 12:05pm:
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 11:37am:
And how do non-racists control the amygdala's initial response?  And how do racists choose not to control their dastardly amygdala's initial response?

You are slipping from is to ought without realising it. You have forgotten your Hume.


What happens after the amygdala's response depends on personal experience, upbringing, preference, familiarity, etc, of the perceived other.

That a person is perceived as an outgroup member becomes less important than the higher brain's reinforcing that the other is a danger or threat, or benign.

I thought you said, "The process of recognition in sighted people begins with the triggering of the nerve-link between the optic nerves and the amygdala after a change in the visual field. This occurs even when the subject is presented with pictures of unknown others.

This recoil can be detected relatively long before conscious recognition, and enhancing/inhibiting processes in the higher brain processes are triggered to moderate, interrupt or cancel the amygdala's response."


So the recoil is an automatic, Pavlovian reflex neural response. In racists and non racist. The latters'  super ego then slaps the amygdala on the wrist by way of a moral corrective while the formers' superego says attaboy instead.
Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14219
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #244 - May 2nd, 2025 at 1:11pm
 
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:01pm:
So the recoil is an automatic, Pavlovian reflex neural response. In racists and non racist. The latters'  super ego then slaps the amygdala on the wrist by way of a moral corrective while the formers' superego says attaboy instead.

The moderation of the amygdalic response can be triggered by a moral injunction or, more usually, by simple recognition that the perceived outgroup member is not a danger or a threat.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 49044
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #245 - May 2nd, 2025 at 1:25pm
 
Quote:
So the recoil is an automatic, Pavlovian reflex


Pavlovian reflexes are taught not innate.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 49896
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #246 - May 2nd, 2025 at 1:34pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:25pm:
Quote:
So the recoil is an automatic, Pavlovian reflex


Pavlovian reflexes are taught not innate.

Automatic.

There is an unconditional stimulant component to Pavlovian reflex - food = saliva. Other =recoil.

Don't try to elude the point.

Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14219
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #247 - May 2nd, 2025 at 1:52pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:11pm:
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:01pm:
So the recoil is an automatic, Pavlovian reflex neural response. In racists and non racist. The latters'  super ego then slaps the amygdala on the wrist by way of a moral corrective while the formers' superego says attaboy instead.

The moderation of the amygdalic response can be triggered by a moral injunction or, more usually, by simple recognition that the perceived outgroup member is not a danger or a threat.

The amygdalic response is so rapid that subjects, when tested, are unaware that they have already begun the process of a value judgement of the other... And even after the amygdalic response has been moderated, subjects often report that they had no response at all to the stimulus of outgroup otherness - that they had no reaction to otherness - their brain imaging tells a different story.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jovial Monk
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Dogs not cats!

Posts: 49044
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #248 - May 2nd, 2025 at 2:18pm
 
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:34pm:
Jovial Monk wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:25pm:
Quote:
So the recoil is an automatic, Pavlovian reflex


Pavlovian reflexes are taught not innate.

Automatic.

There is an unconditional stimulant component to Pavlovian reflex - food = saliva. Other =recoil.

Don't try to elude the point.


Food. . .saliva is natural

Bell. . .saliva is a LEARNED reflex.


Pavlovian responses are LEARNED responses. Socks sits when I tell her “Sit!” because she has learned to do that, using food moved the right way to get her to sit then to associate sitting on command with the pleasurable consequences of praise and/or a treat.
Back to top
 

Get the vaxx! 💉💉

If you don’t like abortions ignore them like you do school shootings.
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 49896
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #249 - May 2nd, 2025 at 2:37pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:52pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:11pm:
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 1:01pm:
So the recoil is an automatic, Pavlovian reflex neural response. In racists and non racist. The latters'  super ego then slaps the amygdala on the wrist by way of a moral corrective while the formers' superego says attaboy instead.

The moderation of the amygdalic response can be triggered by a moral injunction or, more usually, by simple recognition that the perceived outgroup member is not a danger or a threat.

The amygdalic response is so rapid that subjects, when tested, are unaware that they have already begun the process of a value judgement of the other... And even after the amygdalic response has been moderated, subjects often report that they had no response at all to the stimulus of outgroup otherness - that they had no reaction to otherness - their brain imaging tells a different story.



Are you saying that the recoil from a picture of another from an outgroup - race, class, ethnicity, subculture, sporting team, political party,  whatever - is natural and automatic?

In which case race recognition is automatic and cannot be helped.

But how can there be an automatic recoil if races do not exist and therefore there cannot be a racial outgroup at the preconscious, nerve-to-amygdala level?
Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14219
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #250 - May 2nd, 2025 at 2:58pm
 
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 2:37pm:
Are you saying that the recoil from a picture of another from an outgroup - race, class, ethnicity, subculture, sporting team, political party,  whatever - is natural and automatic?

In which case race recognition is automatic and cannot be helped.

But how can there be an automatic recoil if races do not exist and therefore there cannot be a racial outgroup at the preconscious, nerve-to-amygdala level?

Outgroup perception is instinctive and automatic. The process of recognising ingroup begins in infancy - those who look and act like immediate family are ingroup. From then, the ingroup generally expands over formative years into adulthood.

The amygdalic response is triggered by differences/deviations from ingroup features/actions - something that exposes the lie to those who believe they are blind to skin colour or physical features, or to any disfiguring damage.

Being preconscious, the amygdalic response has no intellectual label, such as 'race' - that is part of a conglomeration of higher brain functions, including moral injunctions, personal experience, upbringing, etc.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14219
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #251 - May 2nd, 2025 at 3:01pm
 
A characteristic of the genetic disease, Williams syndrome, is the apparent non-triggering of the amygdala to otherness.

People with Williams syndrome often exhibit an overly social and friendly personality, making it easy to connect with strangers.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 49896
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #252 - May 2nd, 2025 at 3:54pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 2:58pm:
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 2:37pm:
Are you saying that the recoil from a picture of another from an outgroup - race, class, ethnicity, subculture, sporting team, political party,  whatever - is natural and automatic?

In which case race recognition is automatic and cannot be helped.

But how can there be an automatic recoil if races do not exist and therefore there cannot be a racial outgroup at the preconscious, nerve-to-amygdala level?



Outgroup perception is instinctive and automatic. The process of recognising ingroup begins in infancy - those who look and act like immediate family are ingroup. From then, the ingroup generally expands over formative years into adulthood.

The amygdalic response is triggered by differences/deviations from ingroup features/actions - something that exposes the lie to those who believe they are blind to skin colour or physical features, or to any disfiguring damage.

Being preconscious, the amygdalic response has no intellectual label, such as 'race' - that is part of a conglomeration of higher brain functions, including moral injunctions, personal experience, upbringing, etc.



So recognising out-group characteristics is instinctive and automatic.  Black babies will instinctively and automatically prefer black faces and recoil from white or Chinese faces. White babies similarly prefer white faces and recoil from non-white faces.

Well before they have words, let alone words like in-group or race or ethnicity, breed, etc.  They just recognise obvious differences which cannot be wished away or simply declared non-existent.

Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
Frank
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 49896
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #253 - May 2nd, 2025 at 5:07pm
 
The joy of public transport in Portugal.

https://x.com/lporiginalg/status/1916703974670868887

Back to top
 

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 14219
Gender: male
Re: There are NO races
Reply #254 - May 2nd, 2025 at 6:13pm
 
Frank wrote on May 2nd, 2025 at 3:54pm:
So recognising out-group characteristics is instinctive and automatic.  Black babies will instinctively and automatically prefer black faces and recoil from white or Chinese faces. White babies similarly prefer white faces and recoil from non-white faces.

Well before they have words, let alone words like in-group or race or ethnicity, breed, etc.  They just recognise obvious differences which cannot be wished away or simply declared non-existent.

And ingroup facial symmetry over non-symmetry... And a woman's voice over a man's voice... And the ingroup's first language over other languages... And the ingroup's food over outgroups' food...

As I've heard it said, 'babies are not born little buddhas'... but then, neither are they born little Hitlers...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 17 18 
Send Topic Print