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not an empire (Read 1052 times)
MeisterEckhart
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Re: not an empire
Reply #30 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:19pm
 
Whitlam's paranoia that the CIA was plotting to overthrow his government was not unfounded. He was vociferous against US interference in Australia's internal affairs, and Nixon had left no doubt in his mind that the US would not tolerate Australian independence from US policy in Southeast Asia under any circumstances.

It led to Carter's curious assurance to Australia that the CIA would 'never again' interfere in Australia's internal affairs.
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Re: not an empire
Reply #31 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:27pm
 
For his part, Trump's tariffs are no different to how Rome responded to the gargantuan trade between the Indic states and its empire, that many Roman senators complained was bleeding Rome dry of its gold.

Rome charged tariffs of up to 25% on all ships laden with exotic goods docking in Roman-controlled ports.

The income it made on tariffs alone accounted for over a third of all imperial income.

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Frank
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Re: not an empire
Reply #32 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:31pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:57pm:
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:11pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 10:34am:
The way Britain managed the dissolution of its empire was also due to its cost.

As far back as the mid-18th century, Britain began granting dominion status to some of its colonies, with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, and the Irish Free State (now Ireland).

In 1948, Britain formally ended the British Empire and abolished the monarch's Imperial title, although its true end came a few years later after Eisenhower publicly demanded the British withdraw from the Suez.

Since then, the only vestige of its former Imperial role has been in the monarchy and the Privy Council, with the British monarch being retained in as many former colonies as their respective people desire, but reigns in name only, and the Privy Council being retained as the independent state wishes.

The cost was fighting Nazism, not the cost of colonial public service.  France, surrendering to Germany pronto, did not lose its empire at the end of the war.

Decolonisation after 1945 was a natural continuation of fight for liberation from Nazi Germany in Europe spreading to the rest of the world, as liberation from various, now-liberated colonial powers like Britain, France, Belgium, and Germany itself.

The decolonisation of British settler countries like Canada, Australia, NZ and the US,  of course,  began much earlier. How ready the coloured chappies of Africa and Asia were for independence is another question, still debatable today.

The inevitable crushing cost of running its empire dawned on the British establishment by the mid-19th century, which is the primary reason why the colonies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa were granted dominion status.

The US agreed to British demands that its empire be returned to it after WW2 with one unegotiable condition: that it grant independence to every colony and possession that demanded it.

Churchill, himself, was contemplating reneging on the promise of Indian independence, but he was quickly disabused of that notion.



So if it was so crushngly costly for Britain to bring civilisation to every corner of the globe, it should demand compensation from India, Africa, Asia, the Americas.
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Re: not an empire
Reply #33 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:36pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:51pm:
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 11:12am:
Meister, how much tax revenue does the US collect from its 'empire'?

At what rate are Americans settling this 'empire'?

Or do you actually think the British established an empire for the sole purpose of giving free military aid?

300 billion from Australia alone from purchasing phantom submarines.

Every dollar the US expended defending Britain in WW2 was repaid with interest by US demand.


That is not a tax. Would you like to have another go?

How much tax revenue does the US collect from its 'empire'?

At what rate are Americans settling this 'empire'?

Or do you actually think the British established an empire for the sole purpose of giving free military aid?
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: not an empire
Reply #34 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:38pm
 
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 3:31pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:57pm:
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:11pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 10:34am:
The way Britain managed the dissolution of its empire was also due to its cost.

As far back as the mid-18th century, Britain began granting dominion status to some of its colonies, with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, and the Irish Free State (now Ireland).

In 1948, Britain formally ended the British Empire and abolished the monarch's Imperial title, although its true end came a few years later after Eisenhower publicly demanded the British withdraw from the Suez.

Since then, the only vestige of its former Imperial role has been in the monarchy and the Privy Council, with the British monarch being retained in as many former colonies as their respective people desire, but reigns in name only, and the Privy Council being retained as the independent state wishes.

The cost was fighting Nazism, not the cost of colonial public service.  France, surrendering to Germany pronto, did not lose its empire at the end of the war.

Decolonisation after 1945 was a natural continuation of fight for liberation from Nazi Germany in Europe spreading to the rest of the world, as liberation from various, now-liberated colonial powers like Britain, France, Belgium, and Germany itself.

The decolonisation of British settler countries like Canada, Australia, NZ and the US,  of course,  began much earlier. How ready the coloured chappies of Africa and Asia were for independence is another question, still debatable today.

The inevitable crushing cost of running its empire dawned on the British establishment by the mid-19th century, which is the primary reason why the colonies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa were granted dominion status.

The US agreed to British demands that its empire be returned to it after WW2 with one unegotiable condition: that it grant independence to every colony and possession that demanded it.

Churchill, himself, was contemplating reneging on the promise of Indian independence, but he was quickly disabused of that notion.



So if it was so crushngly costly for Britain to bring civilisation to every corner of the globe, it should demand compensation from India, Africa, Asia, the Americas.

Yep, well, try running that by the indigenous populations!

The fact is that India, in particular, was so stacked with riches, the British establishment would rather have cut off their own balls than lose it.

To this day, the gold Indic peoples accumulated over thousands of years of trade is still largely in private Indian hands... the British literally could not bleed the country dry, and not from want of trying.

Britain's resentment at having to relinquish its possessions in India has long been suspected by Indians (and it's largely their firm belief) to be the real reason why Britain partitioned the subcontinent - the world's most egregious act of spite.

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MeisterEckhart
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Re: not an empire
Reply #35 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:41pm
 
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 3:36pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:51pm:
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 11:12am:
Meister, how much tax revenue does the US collect from its 'empire'?

At what rate are Americans settling this 'empire'?

Or do you actually think the British established an empire for the sole purpose of giving free military aid?

300 billion from Australia alone from purchasing phantom submarines.

Every dollar the US expended defending Britain in WW2 was repaid with interest by US demand.


That is not a tax. Would you like to have another go?

How much tax revenue does the US collect from its 'empire'?

At what rate are Americans settling this 'empire'?

Or do you actually think the British established an empire for the sole purpose of giving free military aid?

Nation-states aren't issued US Tax File Numbers, so not a tax? Is that it?

Does the Mafia issue reporting ID cards to impose protection costs on businesses?

Would you like a bit of time to rethink?
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freediver
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Re: not an empire
Reply #36 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:49pm
 
Quote:
Nation-states aren't issued US Tax File Numbers, so not a tax? Is that it?


No Meister, that is not it.

Keep trying though. Maybe you will figure it out.

How much tax revenue does the US collect from its 'empire'?

At what rate are Americans settling this 'empire'?

Or do you actually think the British established an empire for the sole purpose of giving free military aid?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: not an empire
Reply #37 - May 10th, 2025 at 3:56pm
 
freediver wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 3:49pm:
Quote:
Nation-states aren't issued US Tax File Numbers, so not a tax? Is that it?


No Meister, that is not it.

Keep trying though. Maybe you will figure it out.

How much tax revenue does the US collect from its 'empire'?

At what rate are Americans settling this 'empire'?

Or do you actually think the British established an empire for the sole purpose of giving free military aid?

Yep, that's it.  You're not aware of the imperious behaviour of super-states...

You're an accountant, I'd bet (not that anyone wouldn't regret your financial advice)... a TFN, income or not a tax.

At what degree of extracting profit and 'tribute' from foreign states, and determining those states' foreign policy, do the acts of the US become indistinguishable from, say, Roman and British imperialism?
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: not an empire
Reply #38 - May 10th, 2025 at 4:11pm
 
As Jeffrey Sachs commented recently, "If Canada and Mexico think they're truly independent from the US, let them invite China to establish military bases on their respective territories... Let me advise them... don't try it."

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Frank
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Re: not an empire
Reply #39 - May 10th, 2025 at 4:20pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 3:38pm:
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 3:31pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:57pm:
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 2:11pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 10:34am:
The way Britain managed the dissolution of its empire was also due to its cost.

As far back as the mid-18th century, Britain began granting dominion status to some of its colonies, with Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, and the Irish Free State (now Ireland).

In 1948, Britain formally ended the British Empire and abolished the monarch's Imperial title, although its true end came a few years later after Eisenhower publicly demanded the British withdraw from the Suez.

Since then, the only vestige of its former Imperial role has been in the monarchy and the Privy Council, with the British monarch being retained in as many former colonies as their respective people desire, but reigns in name only, and the Privy Council being retained as the independent state wishes.

The cost was fighting Nazism, not the cost of colonial public service.  France, surrendering to Germany pronto, did not lose its empire at the end of the war.

Decolonisation after 1945 was a natural continuation of fight for liberation from Nazi Germany in Europe spreading to the rest of the world, as liberation from various, now-liberated colonial powers like Britain, France, Belgium, and Germany itself.

The decolonisation of British settler countries like Canada, Australia, NZ and the US,  of course,  began much earlier. How ready the coloured chappies of Africa and Asia were for independence is another question, still debatable today.

The inevitable crushing cost of running its empire dawned on the British establishment by the mid-19th century, which is the primary reason why the colonies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa were granted dominion status.

The US agreed to British demands that its empire be returned to it after WW2 with one unegotiable condition: that it grant independence to every colony and possession that demanded it.

Churchill, himself, was contemplating reneging on the promise of Indian independence, but he was quickly disabused of that notion.



So if it was so crushngly costly for Britain to bring civilisation to every corner of the globe, it should demand compensation from India, Africa, Asia, the Americas.

Yep, well, try running that by the indigenous populations!

The fact is that India, in particular, was so stacked with riches, the British establishment would rather have cut off their own balls than lose it.

To this day, the gold Indic peoples accumulated over thousands of years of trade is still largely in private Indian hands... the British literally could not bleed the country dry, and not from want of trying.

Britain's resentment at having to relinquish its possessions in India has long been suspected by Indians (and it's largely their firm belief) to be the real reason why Britain partitioned the subcontinent - the world's most egregious act of spite.


So it was the crushing, unsustainable cost of controlling stacked riches.

So why dont they reunite, now that they are independent? And why arent they rich?

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MeisterEckhart
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Re: not an empire
Reply #40 - May 10th, 2025 at 4:34pm
 
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 4:20pm:
So it was the crushing, unsustainable cost of controlling stacked riches.

So why dont they reunite, now that they are independent? And why arent they rich?


It was getting to the riches that became problematic to the British in India... initially easy, it soon got real hard... Indic peoples had thousands of years of experience hiding their wealth.

Reunite? India has never been a united country or people... How else do you think a pathetically small nation relative to size and population to India managed to rule so much of it?

Modi believes he's been ordained by god to create a singular national Indian identity...

India is the most diverse nation by every measure than anywhere else in the world.

Private wealth needs to be extracted from very powerful people... just confiscating it won't work unless you don't mind being bludgeoned to death on the way to Parliament.
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Re: not an empire
Reply #41 - May 10th, 2025 at 4:55pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 4:34pm:
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 4:20pm:
So it was the crushing, unsustainable cost of controlling stacked riches.

So why dont they reunite, now that they are independent? And why arent they rich?


It was getting to the riches that became problematic to the British in India... initially easy, it soon got real hard... Indic peoples had thousands of years of experience hiding their wealth.

Reunite? India has never been a united country or people... How else do you think a pathetically small nation relative to size and population to India managed to rule so much of it?

Modi believes he's been ordained by god to create a singular national Indian identity...

India is the most diverse nation by every measure than anywhere else in the world.

Private wealth needs to be extracted from very powerful people... just confiscating it won't work unless you don't mind being bludgeoned to death on the way to Parliament.


So you ARE saying India wasn't partitioned enough by the British?  They should have broken it up into the many sultanates or hand it back to the Muslim Moghuls?

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Re: not an empire
Reply #42 - May 10th, 2025 at 5:02pm
 
Frank wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 4:55pm:
So you ARE saying India wasn't partitioned enough by the British?  They should have broken it up into the many sultanates or hand it back to the Muslim Moghuls?


I didn't say India should have been partitioned at all, nevermind wasn't partitioned enough...

If it were partitioned on ethnic lines, it would have looked like a map of Aboriginal traditional tribal lands, with some 'principalities', with their own Raja and royal family, not much bigger than a city block.

But, on that, there are plenty of Sikh separatists who would agree with you. The so-called Khalistani separatists want the state they were promised when East and West Pakistan was created.
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« Last Edit: May 10th, 2025 at 5:12pm by MeisterEckhart »  
 
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Re: not an empire
Reply #43 - May 10th, 2025 at 5:23pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on May 10th, 2025 at 5:02pm:
If it were partitioned on ethnic lines, it would have looked like a map of Aboriginal traditional tribal lands, with some 'principalities', with their own Raja and royal family, not much bigger than a city block.

Indira Gandhi (nee Nehru), herself, went to school with many princesses from these principalities who looked down on Nehru as a non-aristocratic pleb. She was reported to have taken great satisfaction in abolishing these states and absorbing their land into the Indian state, and disestablishing their monarchies, as a personal act of revenge... although most got to keep their incalculable wealth in mostly priceless gold artefacts and treasure - a large part of it from the Roman gold acquired thousands of years ago.
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Re: not an empire
Reply #44 - May 10th, 2025 at 5:38pm
 
That's another feature of imperialism...

When the imperial world order changes or realigns, it's gold that the remaining super-states turn to in order to preserve and hoard their wealth, to prepare themselves for the upcoming jostle for a slice of world power and resources, which is what we're seeing today.

The great contenders are, of course, the US and China, with Russia scrambling to be third. As historically usual, India, that, admittedly, has never been a contender for world dominance as a single entity before in its history, seems happy to sit on the sidelines for now.

It's not for no reason that Trump recently and publicly quoted the adage, 'he who has the gold makes the rules'.
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