Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Send Topic Print
American Freedom (Read 2566 times)
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #45 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 3:26pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 31st, 2024 at 2:43pm:
A stalemate without the US would leave Germany in Ukraine and west Belarus, Belgium and north France. There would be no EU, the German Kaiser would own Europe (with no damage inside Germany) and intermarry with Russian royals. 
...and democracy?

The war ended in an armistice as it was.

Even with the US not involved, Germany would have been in no economic or military position to keep non-German territory after a negotiated outcome.

Kaiser Wilhelm would likely still have abdicated in favour of his son, Prince Wilhelm.

However, the Kaiser's abdication may still have been enough to trigger the abolition of the monarchy - the French may have put it on the table as one of their conditions - at the very least the new Kaiser would have been forced to accept the role of a British-style constitutional monarch.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12954
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #46 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 3:59pm
 
With the US, the allies didn't enter German territory to enforce a surrender. With no US, equal strengths and stalemate gave allies no ability to make Germany do anything.  Its position in 1918 could have been pushed as the Kaiser's success. The rise in German morale would resemble Nazi power of 1940.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #47 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 4:08pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 31st, 2024 at 3:59pm:
With the US, the allies didn't enter German territory to enforce a surrender. With no US, equal strengths and stalemate gave allies no ability to make Germany do anything.  Its position in 1918 could have been pushed as the Kaiser's success. The rise in German morale would resemble Nazi power of 1940.

The Kaiser was deeply unpopular in Germany by 1917, with the German people blaming him personally for involving Germany in the dispute between Austria and Serbia for which the German people paid an enormous price - with almost no retainable gain.

The Kaiser was already despised for his arrogance and incompetence as a political leader and supreme commander and was forced to abdicate by the German High Command and the chancellor of Germany.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12954
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #48 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 4:35pm
 
3000km from Calais to Rostov is what Mr Adolf gave to Germany and was not a bad deal for the Kaiser in 1918. He would have the Atlantic and Black Sea for his navy and boots on the ground.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #49 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 4:39pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 31st, 2024 at 4:35pm:
3000km from Calais to Rostov is what Mr Adolf gave to Germany and was not a bad deal for the Kaiser in 1918. He would have the Atlantic and Black Sea for his navy and boots on the ground.

Germany would never have been allowed to keep non-German territories in Europe.

The US could easily have remained out of the war but supplied Britain, France and Russia with arms to ensure Germany would be forced to return to its pre-war borders.

Germany may then have been allowed to keep its overseas territories.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12954
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #50 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 6:41pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 31st, 2024 at 1:26pm:
so, had the US not intervened in WW1:

That's the basis for your comments. How could a 'stalemate' allow Uk France to force Germany out? By definition, no-one would have an advantage.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #51 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 6:54pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 31st, 2024 at 6:41pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Jul 31st, 2024 at 1:26pm:
so, had the US not intervened in WW1:

That's the basis for your comments. How could a 'stalemate' allow Uk France to force Germany out? By definition, no-one would have an advantage.

Not intervening, as in boots on the ground, doesn't mean the US would not provide materiel support to the UK and France.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12954
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #52 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 7:57pm
 
intervene 'take part in something so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events.'

stalemate 'a situation in which further action or progress by opposing or competing parties seems impossible'.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #53 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 8:10pm
 
chimera wrote on Jul 31st, 2024 at 7:57pm:
intervene 'take part in something so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events.'

stalemate 'a situation in which further action or progress by opposing or competing parties seems impossible'.

Seems impossible...

With the threat of the Allies capable of further prosecuting the war with materiel supplied by the US.

Combined with the threat of Germany losing all of its overseas possessions.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12954
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #54 - Jul 31st, 2024 at 8:12pm
 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #55 - Aug 1st, 2024 at 1:28pm
 
Hilarious!

Trump walks on stage to the sound of Lee Greenwood's "God Bles the USA" with its chorus, "I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free"

Harris signs on with Beyonce's "Freedom" and its refrain "Freedom, freedom".

I guess Americans are a-hankerin' for a-somethin' they ain't so good at deliverin'.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12954
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #56 - Aug 1st, 2024 at 2:51pm
 
'Not intervening, as in boots on the ground, doesn't mean the US would not provide materiel support to the UK and France'.
'so, had the US not intervened in WW1 : The war ends in a stalemate'.
'The US could easily have remained out of the war but supplied Britain, France and Russia with arms to ensure Germany would be forced to return to its pre-war borders.'
'With the threat of the Allies capable of further prosecuting the war with materiel supplied by the US.'


I'm just a little bit confused here.  The US was in the war by supplying arms but that's not intervening in the war.  The supply would make a stalemate and ensure Germany is forced back by further war breaking the stalemate.  

Would you be confused if road-works has a man with one sign saying Stop and another sign saying Slow at the same time?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #57 - Aug 1st, 2024 at 3:06pm
 
chimera wrote on Aug 1st, 2024 at 2:51pm:
'Not intervening, as in boots on the ground, doesn't mean the US would not provide materiel support to the UK and France'.
'so, had the US not intervened in WW1 : The war ends in a stalemate'.
'The US could easily have remained out of the war but supplied Britain, France and Russia with arms to ensure Germany would be forced to return to its pre-war borders.'
'With the threat of the Allies capable of further prosecuting the war with materiel supplied by the US.'


I'm just a little bit confused here.  The US was in the war by supplying arms but that's not intervening in the war.  The supply would make a stalemate and ensure Germany is forced back by further war breaking the stalemate.  

Would you be confused if road-works has a man with one sign saying Stop and another sign saying Slow at the same time?

Intervening means boots on the ground or weapons specifically used by a state against another.

The US and NATO are supplying Ukraine with materiel. Russia cannot claim they are intervening while they do not deploy combat troops in Ukraine or fire missiles into Russia from foreign soil except in self-defence.

It's why Iran uses proxies against Israel.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
chimera
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 12954
Armidale
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #58 - Aug 1st, 2024 at 4:58pm
 
'Not intervening, as in boots on the ground, doesn't mean the US would not provide materiel support to the UK and France'. Not intervening means providing materiel and not intervening means not providing materiel.
'Intervening means boots on the ground or weapons specifically used by a state against another'.
Stop . Go.  which one?

'The US and NATO are supplying Ukraine with materiel. Russia cannot claim they are intervening'.
 A website says 'NATO prepares direct intervention into Russia-Ukraine war.
“Russia can and must suffer strategic defeat in Ukraine,” the Sofia communiqué declared. It called for a “clearly stated strategy premised on the goal that Ukraine must be provided with all that it needs, as quickly as possible and for as long as it takes for it to win.” The Sofia communiqué advocated “lifting some restrictions on the use of weapons provided by NATO Allies to strike legitimate targets in Russia.” 
(You need to have a talk with Meister Eckhart, urgently). 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
MeisterEckhart
Gold Member
*****
Online


Australian Politics

Posts: 14267
Gender: male
Re: American Freedom
Reply #59 - Aug 1st, 2024 at 5:11pm
 
chimera wrote on Aug 1st, 2024 at 4:58pm:
'Not intervening, as in boots on the ground, doesn't mean the US would not provide materiel support to the UK and France'. Not intervening means providing materiel and not intervening means not providing materiel.
'Intervening means boots on the ground or weapons specifically used by a state against another'.
Stop . Go.  which one?

'The US and NATO are supplying Ukraine with materiel. Russia cannot claim they are intervening'.
 A website says 'NATO prepares direct intervention into Russia-Ukraine war.
“Russia can and must suffer strategic defeat in Ukraine,” the Sofia communiqué declared. It called for a “clearly stated strategy premised on the goal that Ukraine must be provided with all that it needs, as quickly as possible and for as long as it takes for it to win.” The Sofia communiqué advocated “lifting some restrictions on the use of weapons provided by NATO Allies to strike legitimate targets in Russia.” 
(You need to have a talk with Meister Eckhart, urgently). 

A website, eh!

Do they quote 'anonymous sources'?

Neither the US nor NATO has intervened in the Ukraine war nor has any European nation.

Iran and North Korea both supply Russia with weapons and materiel but neither has intervened in the war.

Is English your first language?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Send Topic Print