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The pointy end of AGW. (Read 5078 times)
Jovial Monk
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The pointy end of AGW.
Jun 5th, 2024 at 7:37pm
 
Not only is AGW accelerating but the sun is increasing its output, rumors of a Grand Solar Minimum have long gone and the ice shelf on the eastern side of the Thwaites “Doomsday” glacier is melting and fracturing and so sea level rise is about to take off.

Most of my family lives in the South of Adelaide amd I would love to convince them to sell their houses and moving to higher ground.

I had thought this El Nino summer might be the typical hot-as-hell El Nino. It was a cooler wetter version of El Nino—a chance to sell from low lying beach side suburbs and moving to a more sensible spot to cope with rapidly increasing AGW and sea level rise.

How to convince the uneducated to act in their own best long term interest?

Appeal to their self interest: a family member bought a house and has renovated it. Might make good money on it now, but after a hellacious hot El Nino—who would want to buy in Adelaide?
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #1 - Jun 5th, 2024 at 7:48pm
 
Jovial Monk wrote on Jun 5th, 2024 at 7:37pm:
Not only is AGW accelerating but the sun is increasing its output, rumors of a Grand Solar Minimum have long gone and the ice shelf on the eastern side of the Thwaites “Doomsday” glacier is melting and fracturing and so sea level rise is about to take off.

Most of my family lives in the South of Adelaide amd I would love to convince them to sell their houses and moving to higher ground.

I had thought this El Nino summer might be the typical hot-as-hell El Nino. It was a cooler wetter version of El Nino—a chance to sell from low lying beach side suburbs and moving to a more sensible spot to cope with rapidly increasing AGW and sea level rise.

How to convince the uneducated to act in their own best long term interest?

Appeal to their self interest: a family member bought a house and has renovated it. Might make good money on it now, but after a hellacious hot El Nino—who would want to buy in Adelaide?


Naughty, naughty Sun.... Somebody must reign in that Sun. A climate scientist, I fancy.... Grin


More to the point  - how to convince the uneducated, deranged African climate alarmists at the arse end of the arse end to chill?

The question for the age.


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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #2 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 7:15am
 
As one of the uneducated, Frank, your opinion is worthless.
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #3 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 9:00am
 
For poor unfortunate uneducated Franko, the latest UAH6 chart:

...

Once the triple La Nina is out of the way a huge spike in temperatures happened that are still near that peak. Some reasons for then spike:

1. The El Nino that developed early 2023

2. The Hunga Tonga eruption that sent water vapor into the stratosphere—water vapor is a GHG and so the eruption slightly warmed us

3. The change in marine fuels that saw ships emit less sulphate aerosols

2 & 3 account for maybe 0.1–0.15% of warming.

The sun, except when covered by dark sunspots like now (224 sunspots visible at one time) is as bright as it was in 2003—Solar Cycle 23. What will it be like in SC26? AGW is stronger than the cooling from the sun leaving the mid century maximum in the 1980s, now ADD increasing brightness?

Another effect of AGW is the decrease in cloudiness—the warmer air can carry rather more water vapor so less condensation. So less sunlight is reflected by clouds, more reaches the surface, warming it.

All these effects are just the froth on the increase in temperatures due to continuing and accelerating AGW.

UAH6 estimates AGW has increased from 0.14°C to 0.15°C—so even UAH agrees AGW is real and increasing.

The graph of course agrees with the super hot heatwave over Asia, from Iraq to Bangladesh. The Bangladesh delta is feeling the pressure of the increase in sea levels—salt water incursions are turning farmlands to saltwater bogs, unsuitable for growing crops. Now imagine the increase in the rate of SLR.


One of the effects of AGW is the poleward migration of climate zones. This sees the belt of cyclones and anticyclones that stretches from Perth to Tasmania increasingly travel over the Great Australian Bight, decreasing rainfall over southern Australia.
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« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2024 at 10:05am by Jovial Monk »  

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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #4 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 9:30am
 
Thwaites glacier ice shelf

Quote:
Thwaites Ice Shelf

The Thwaites Ice Shelf is one of the biggest ice shelves in West Antarctica, though it is highly unstable and disintegrating rapidly.[2][3] Since the 1980s, the Thwaites glacier, nicknamed the "Doomsday glacier",[4] has had a net loss of over 600 billion tons of ice, though pinning of the Thwaites Ice Shelf has served to slow the process.[5] The Thwaites Ice Shelf has acted like a dam for the eastern portion of glacier, bracing it and allowing for a slow melt rate, in contrast to the undefended western portion.[4][6]


40 years has seen a loss of 600 billion tons of ice, 15 tons of ice a year tho the melt rate won’t be a linear increase, more like an exponential rate of increase. Antarctica is losing over 100Gtons ice a year.

Quote:
. . .the Thwaites Eastern Ice Shelf (TEIS) buttresses one-third of Thwaites glacier. Removal of the shelf has the potential to increase the contribution of Thwaites glacier to sea level rise by up to 25%.[7] As of 2021, the ice shelf appears to be losing its grip on a submarine shoal that acts as a pinning point and the shear margin that separates the Thwaites Eastern Ice Shelf from the Thwaites glacier Tongue has extended, further weakening the ice shelf connection to the pinning point.[7]

A sequence of Sentinel-1 radar imagery shows that parallel wing and comb cracks have recently formed rifts at high angles to the main shear margin and are propagating into the central part of the ice shelf at rates as high as 2 km per year. Satellite data, ground-penetrating radar, and GPS measurements taken in 2021 indicate that collapse of the ice shelf may be initiated by intersection of rifts with hidden basal crevasse zones as soon as 2026.[7]


As soon as 2026, unless AGW keeps accelerating, the simplistic calculation of 15 tons ice loss a year will increase to 20Gtons and up.

Both Antarctica and the Southern Ocean are warming:
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #5 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 9:56am
 
More on the Thwaites glacier:

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/26/climate/doomsday-glacier-antarctic-ice-melt-c...

From the group studying the Thwaites glacier:
Quote:
Ice loss from Thwaites Glacier is significant and increasing
9. Annually Thwaites is losing about 50 billion tons of ice more than it is receiving in snowfall. (Source and calculation: https://data1.geo.tu-dresden.de/ais_gmb/ Over the 14 year period of 2002–2016, Basin AIS21, which is slightly larger than just TG, has lost 748 Gt, equating to 2.07 mm of global sea level compared to a current rate of global sea level rise of 3.2 mma-1=4.6%. 50 billion tonnes assumes 4% of 3.5 mm annual sea-level rise.)

10. Since 2000, the glacier has had a net loss of more than 1000 billion tons of ice. (Source and calculation:) https://data1.geo.tu-dresden.de/ais_gmb/ Over the period 2002–2016 (14 years), Basin AIS21, which is slightly larger than just TG, has lost a total of 748 Gt. Assuming the last 4 years lost ice at the same rate gives a total of 1068 Gt.)

11. The amount of ice loss has doubled over the last 30 years by Thwaites and its neighbouring glaciers.


https://thwaitesglacier.org/about/facts

Anybody with the curiosity of a snail, which leaves out Frank, should rerad the above article.

106.8Gtons in 24 years = 4.45Gtons ice loss a year averaged over the 24 years. Rate has doubled—exponential rate increase.
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« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2024 at 10:13am by Jovial Monk »  

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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #6 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 11:42am
 
Let us look at the acceleration of AGW.

Quote:
Over the past year, there has been a vigorous debate among scientists – and more broadly – about whether global warming is “accelerating”.

This, in turn, has led to questions about whether the world is warming “faster than scientists expected”.

Here, Carbon Brief takes a detailed look at the issue and finds that there is increasing evidence of an acceleration in the rate of warming over the past 15 years.

However, this acceleration is broadly in line with projections from the latest generation of climate models and the recent sixth assessment report (AR6) from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). They all expect the world to warm notably faster in both current and future decades than the rate the world has experienced since 1970.


You can see the apparent acceleration from the UAH6 chart—you can see the rate of increase pretty steady from 1979 on but a definite change to a faster pace from about 2015 on.

Quote:
Carbon Brief’s analysis also reveals that the speed up in warming projected in the latest climate models (known as CMIP6) is similar to the acceleration estimated by prominent climate scientist Dr James Hansen and colleagues in their much-discussed 2023 paper in Oxford Open Climate Change.

The IPCC’s AR6 also produced a set of “assessed warming projections” that incorporate multiple lines of evidence. While these project future warming levels a bit below the average of CMIP6 models, they still expect the rate of warming up to 2050 to be around 26% faster than the world has experienced to date since 1970.

Even with an apparent acceleration in recent warming, there remain major questions regarding drivers of 2023’s record-breaking heat relative to 2022, though annual temperatures still remain well within the range of climate-model projections.


Wow! “the rate of warming up to 2050 to be around 26% faster than the world has experienced to date since 1970.” That is some acceleration! And  low estimate!

Quote:
An accelerating debate


Between 1970 and 2008, the world warmed at an approximately linear rate – by 0.18C per decade.

However, in recent years, the rise in global surface temperatures has climbed above this long-term trend, with eight of the past nine years showing warming levels above what would be expected given the historical warming rate.

In December 2022, former NASA scientist Dr James Hansen and colleagues published a preprint (later published as a peer-reviewed paper in 2023) projecting an acceleration in the rate of warming over the next few decades. Hansen and colleagues argued that the rate of warming would increase to between 0.27C and 0.36C per decade – or a 50-to-100% increase in the warming rate since 1970 – over the next 30 years.

These projections – coupled with the exceptional and unusual temperatures in 2023 – has fuelled a debate within the scientific community and among the broader public about a potential acceleration in warming in recent years.


So an acceleration was due and happened. But why—hypothesis without a driver of the observed rise is just gossip, of no interest, not scientific.

No real mechanism has emerged, as yet. As with the alleged hiatus in warming early this century—this could be a lot of fuss about nothing. It could be a positive feedback reaction to the loss of sea ice at both poles and to the decrease in clouds (then how do “atmospheric rivers” factor in?)


Graph of temps showing acceleration of warming:
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #7 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 12:35pm
 
I reckon the climate deniers' ideology is being swept away in floods and storms happening with monotonous regularity all around the world: currently it's the southern part of Germany (floods), last week it was the south of the US ( tornadoes). 

https://apnews.com/article/germany-flooding-victims-bavaria-f945b8f07838e717032a...

Death toll from floods across southern Germany rises to 6

Certainly worthwhile creating a global economy based on renewables. We need to ditch the profit-gouging private fossil-fuel industry, and transition to green ASAP,  funded by a legal currency-issuing institution (see MMT).
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #8 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 12:42pm
 
And microplastics are almost as big a danger to us and all other critters.

Temperatures over 50°C across a swathe of Asia and Africa earlier than ever.
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #9 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 1:45pm
 
I quoted a paper in the discussion of the previous article. Paper is by Hansen et al (“et al” a fancy way to say “and others.” The lead or sole author is the name cited and the full name of the paper and all the authors is quoted in the Bibliography at the end. Here endeth the lesson.)

Quote:
[long history of climate science snipped]. . .most climate models are unrealistically insensitive to freshwater injected by melting ice and that ice sheet models are unrealistically lethargic in the face of rapid, large climate change [14].


We are certainly becoming aware that the long term meridional overturning circulation that distributes heat, CO2 and nutrients along the world’s oceans and warms Western Europe and northern North America is in severe trouble. It is in severe trouble because there is lots of fresh water from sea ice that is colder than seawater because of the salt content of the seawater.

Consequently—the meltwater sits on top of seawater and no longer sinks to the bottom, starting on its way to the Southern Ocean or the North Atlantic—no more overturning circulation.

Quote:
Charney defined ECS as the eventual global temperature change caused by doubled CO2 if ice sheets, vegetation and long-lived GHGs are fixed (except the specified CO2 doubling). Other quantities affecting Earth’s energy balance—clouds, aerosols, water vapor, snow cover and sea ice—change rapidly in response to climate change. Thus, Charney’s ECS is also called the ‘fast-feedback’ climate sensitivity. Feedbacks interact in many ways, so their changes are calculated in global climate models (GCMs) that simulate such interactions. Charney implicitly assumed that change of the ice sheets on Greenland and Antarctica—which we categorize as a ‘slow feedback’—was not important on time scales of most public interest.

ECS defined by Charney is a gedanken concept* that helps us study the effect of human-made and natural climate forcings. If knowledge of ECS were based only on models, it would be difficult to narrow the range of estimated climate sensitivity—or have confidence in any range—because we do not know how well feedbacks are modeled or if the models include all significant real-world feedbacks. Cloud and aerosol interactions are complex, e.g. and even small cloud changes can have a large effect. Thus, data on Earth’s paleoclimate history are essential, allowing us to compare different climate states, knowing that all feedbacks operated.


*Gedanken concept = thought experiment.

Climate through the Cenozoic Era (Modern geological time, since the time of the meteorite that killed off the dinosaurs except birds) has been pretty well studied by paleoclimatologists and of course includes all the real feedbacks that are caused by and affect climate.

Quote:
. . . .feedbacks occur in the real world and in GCMs. In our GCM the equilibrium response to 2 × CO2 was 4°C warming of Earth’s surface. Thus, the fraction of equilibrium warming due directly to the CO2 change was 0.3 (1.2°C/4°C) and the feedback ‘gain’, g, was 0.7 (2.8°C/4°C). Algebraically, ECS and feedback gain are related by(1)

We evaluated contributions of individual feedback processes to g by inserting changes of water vapor, clouds, and surface albedo (reflectivity, literally whiteness, due to sea ice and snow changes) from the 2 × CO2 GCM simulation one-by-one into a one-dimensional radiative-convective model [16], finding gwv = 0.4, gcl = 0.2, gsa = 0.1, where gwv, gcl, and gsa are the water vapor, cloud and surface albedo gains. The 0.2 cloud gain was about equally from a small increase in cloud top height and a small decrease in cloud cover. These feedbacks all seemed reasonable, but how could we verify their magnitudes or the net ECS due to all feedbacks?


Indeed, modelling the atmosphere with all its dynamics and feedbacks is very difficult, yet the models do pretty well.

Quote:
We recognized the potential of emerging paleoclimate data. Early data from polar ice cores revealed that atmospheric CO2 was much less during glacial period . . . .However, when we employed CLIMAP boundary conditions including sea surface temperatures (SSTs), Earth was out of energy balance, radiating 2.1 W/m2 to space, i.e. Earth was trying to cool off with an enormous energy imbalance, equivalent to half of 2 × CO2 forcing.

Something was wrong with either assumed LGM conditions or our climate model.


Always checking hypothesis with reality is what science is all about.

Will have to be continued—dinner time!
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #10 - Jun 6th, 2024 at 4:32pm
 
I am watching this interview right now and bought the guys book:



Have a look at the cool photo of an ice cave in Antarctica:
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #11 - Jun 7th, 2024 at 10:29am
 
Back to Hansen et al.

Talk of values of ECM—they thought it higher than models etc indicated.

Quote:
Our approach is to compare glacial and interglacial equilibrium climate states. The change of atmospheric and surface forcings can be defined accurately, thus leading to a sharp evaluation of ECS for cases in which equilibrium response is assured. With this knowledge in hand, additional information can be extracted from historical and paleo climate changes.


So:
Quote:
Orbital changes alter the seasonal and geographical distribution of insolation, which affects ice sheet size and GHG amount. Long-term climate is sensitive because ice sheets and GHGs act as amplifying feedbacks: [43] as Earth warms, ice sheets shrink, expose a darker surface, and absorb more sunlight; also, as Earth warms, the ocean and continents release GHGs to the air. These amplifying feedbacks work in the opposite sense as Earth cools. Orbital forcings oscillate slowly over tens and hundreds of thousands of years [44]. The picture of how Earth orbital changes drive millennial climate change was painted in the 1920s by Milutin Milankovitch, who built on 19th century hypotheses of James Croll and Joseph Adhémar. Paleoclimate changes of ice sheets and GHGs are sometimes described as slow feedbacks [45], but their slow change is paced by the Earth orbital forcing; their slow change does not mean that these feedbacks cannot operate more rapidly in response to a rapid climate forcing.


So the cycle of major ice ages becomes the subject of the study:
Quote:
In this section we evaluate ECS by comparing neighboring glacial and interglacial periods when Earth was in energy balance within less than 0.1 W/m2 averaged over a millennium. Larger imbalance would cause temperature or sea level change that did not occur [48].4 Thus, we can assess ECS from knowledge of atmospheric and surface forcings that maintained these climates.

Recent advanced analysis techniques allow improved estimate of paleo temperatures. Tierney et al. [49] exclude microbiology fossils whose potential to adapt makes them dubious thermometers. Instead, they use a large collection of geochemical (isotope) proxies for SST in an analysis constrained by climate change patterns defined by GCMs. They find cooling of 6.1°C (95% confidence: 5.7–6.5°C) for the interval 23–19 kyBP. A similarly constrained global analysis by Osman et al. [50] finds LGM cooling at 21–18 kyBP of 7.0 ± 1°C (95% confidence). Tierney (priv. comm.) attributes the difference between the two studies to the broader time interval of the former study, and concludes that peak LGM cooling was near 7°C.


They discuss the Cenozoic:
Quote:
Cenozoic era
In this section, we use ocean sediment core data to explore climate change in the past 66 million years. This allows us to study warmer climates that are relevant to human-made climate forcing.

High equilibrium climate sensitivity that we have inferred, ECS = 1.2°C ± 0.3°C per W/m2, may affect interpretation of warmer climates. GCMs have difficulty in producing Pliocene warmth [85], especially in the Arctic, without large—probably unrealistic—CO2 amounts. In addition, a coupled GCM/ice sheet model needs 700–840 ppm CO2 for transition between glaciated and unglaciated Antarctica [86]. Understanding of these climate states is hampered by uncertainty in the forcings that maintained the climate, as proxy measures of CO2 have large uncertainty.

Theory informs us that CO2 is the principal control knob on global temperature [87]. Climate of the past 800 000 years demonstrates (Fig. 2) the tight control. Our aim here is to extract Cenozoic surface temperature history from the deep ocean oxygen isotope δ18O and infer Cenozoic CO2 history. Oxygen isotope data has high temporal resolution for the entire Cenozoic, which aids understanding of Cenozoic climate change and resulting implications for future climate. Our CO2 analysis is a complement to proxy CO2 measurements. Despite progress in estimating CO2 via carbon isotopes in alkenones and boron isotopes in planktic foraminifera [88], there is wide scatter among results and fossil plant stomata suggest smaller CO2 amounts [89].
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #12 - Jun 7th, 2024 at 10:36am
 
Heh, they do discuss the marine fuel shift to low sulphate emitting fuels—make it clear no way is all the increase in warming is due to that. E.g. there is high natural cloud variability over the north Pacific ship tracks.

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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #13 - Jun 7th, 2024 at 10:43am
 
There is more warming in the pipeline even if emissions were controlled today:

Quote:
Equilibrium warming versus committed warming
Equilibrium warming for today’s climate forcing is the warming required to restore Earth’s energy balance if atmospheric composition is fixed at today’s conditions. Equilibrium warming is a benchmark that can be evaluated from atmospheric composition and paleoclimate data, with little involvement of climate models. It is the standard benchmark used in definition of the Charney ECS (equilibrium climate sensitivity excluding slow feedbacks) [4] and ESS (Earth system sensitivity, which includes slow feedbacks such as ice sheet size) [71]. GHG climate forcing now is 4.6 W/m2 relative to the mid-Holocene (7000years before present (=1950)) or 4.1 W/m2 relative to 1750.

There is little merit in debating whether GHG forcing is 4.6 or 4.1 W/m2
because it is still increasing 0.5 W/m2 per decade (Perspective on policy implications section). ECS response to 4.6 W/m2 forcing for climate sensitivity 1.2°C per W/m2 is 5.5°C. The eventual Earth system response (ESS) to sustained 4.6 W/m2 forcing is about 10°C (Earth system sensitivity section), because that forcing is large enough to deglaciate Antarctica (Fig. 23). Net human-made forcing today is probably near 3 W/m2 due to negative aerosol forcing. Even 3 W/m2 may be sufficient to largely deglaciate Antarctica, if the forcing is left in place permanently (Fig. 23).



So:
Quote:
The potential for rising CO2 to be a serious threat to humanity was the reason for the 1979 Charney report, which confirmed that climate was likely sensitive to expected CO2 levels in the 21st century. In the 1980s it emerged that high climate sensitivity implied a long delay between changing atmospheric composition and the full climate response. Ice core data revealed the importance of amplifying climate feedbacks. A climate characterized by delayed response and amplifying feedbacks is especially dangerous because the public and policymakers are unlikely to make fundamental changes in world energy systems until they see visible evidence of the threat.


https://academic.oup.com/oocc/article/3/1/kgad008/7335889

The very long detailed discussion in this paper found evidence in the lag between loss of land ice and increasing forcings for warming, plus the capability of the oceans to keep absorbing and storing heat, maybe the reason for super El Ninos in 1998, 2016 and 2021.
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Re: The pointy end of AGW.
Reply #14 - Jun 7th, 2024 at 1:13pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 6th, 2024 at 12:35pm:
I reckon the climate deniers' ideology is being swept away in floods and storms happening with monotonous regularity all around the world: currently it's the southern part of Germany (floods), last week it was the south of the US ( tornadoes). 

https://apnews.com/article/germany-flooding-victims-bavaria-f945b8f07838e717032a...

Death toll from floods across southern Germany rises to 6

Certainly worthwhile creating a global economy based on renewables. We need to ditch the profit-gouging private fossil-fuel industry, and transition to green ASAP,  funded by a legal currency-issuing institution (see MMT).


I have not seen a major flood level event since the year 2017. It has been "meh" hot weather and "neh" cold weather every year since 2018. The thermometer ticks over 40°C mark every year, but only once a year. The cold weather rarely gets to freezing level like it did regularly in the 1980s. And I know that you are ready to reply that Rockhampton is not the world.

It is not like weather events would not happen if the entire world was obsessive compulsive ecology and environmentally friendly. The Earth is currently undergoing a cycle of coming out of the ice age. The next glacial stage will begin in 1500 years. Reading for temperature and rainfall are usually biased by the urban heat and factors that prevent accurate readings.

Let us not get too carried away by the statistics that don't seem to represent the realities of the way humans have adapted to changing weather events.
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