Australian Politics Forum - Ukraine war update

Jovial Monk Gold Member Online Dogs not cats! Posts: 51406 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1920 - Dec 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm Fourth shadow tanker sunk by Ukraine. ruzzia has 1000 old ships in its shadow fleet. They can’t use the Black Sea/Bosphorus anymore. The Baltic Sea freezes in winter. Murmansk the only alternative—looong trip to oil markets.
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Jovial Monk Gold Member Online Dogs not cats! Posts: 51406 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1921 - Dec 3^rd, 2025 at 12:45pm .
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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6180	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1922 - Dec 3^rd, 2025 at 1:12pm Witkoff & Kushner walk about in Moscow in total darkness (according to poofter who can not spell words Russia and Russians)
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Bobby.

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1923 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 6:27am

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/12/03/europe/putin-trump-ukraine-war-analysis-intl

5 hours ago - 4th Dec 2025

Putin sends Trump’s messengers packing, with eyes on a geopolitical win

Kyiv, Ukraine
—
Vladimir Putin does not want a deal, and the sweetness of being begged to entertain one is something the Russian president relishes. Five hours of US President Donald Trump’s envoy and son-in-law meeting with the Kremlin head seemed to yield little publicly. It is helpful to step back and view the world and the Russian invasion through his eyes.

It is a war Putin started, hoping he could in a matter of days put Russia back on the map as the pre-eminent military force in Europe, capable of decisive action after the embarrassing departure by the United States from its longest war in Afghanistan. His hope for a swift win morphed into an ugly war of attrition. For a while, strategic defeat loomed, with US and NATO aid to plucky, tiny Ukraine allowing Kyiv to achieve victories unthinkable a year earlier.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6180	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1924 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 9:21am As Boris Johnson famously said: "let's just fight" to derail 2022 peace talks.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1925 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:17am

tallowood wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2025 at 12:33pm:

Problem with an international tribunal is it isn't politically independent.

An ICJ under the auspices of the UN constituted to resolve disutes between nations, backed by a UNSC without veto, would indeed "save mankind from the scourge of war".

Such an ICJ would most certainly be "politically independent", because its task would be to settle disputes between nations. guided by the UNUDHR.

Political disputes, like Russia-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine would be overruled by the principles of the UNUDHR as adjudicated by the ICJ.

.....

Geoffrey Robinson in a conversation with Phillip Adams noted the crippling effect of the UNSC veto; but he went off on a long-winded tangent (typical lawyer) about 'rules of war' including definitions of 'collateral damage' and 'proportional response' , seemingly oblivious to the fact these things involve murder in war regardless of how you define them.

The UN's 'rules of war' themselves defeat the very purpose of the UN "to save mankind from the scourge of war".

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« Last Edit: Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:26am by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1926 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:20am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:17am:

An ICJ under the auspices of the UN constituted to resolve disutes between nations, backed by a UNSC without veto, would indeed "save mankind from the scourge of war".

Corrupt, evil regimes like the Chinese communist party, North Korea, Putin etc will magically work together to prevent war. Meanwhile Russia is invading Ukraine and China is threatening to "peacefully" unify Taiwan by starving them out and slaughtering anyone who gets in the way, and our resident little pinks are insisting it is already written into UN law that Taiwan is part of China, because they found the word "China" in one of the laws from last century. And they are pre-emptively insisting that anyone who comes to Taiwan or Ukraine's assistance will be responsible for the war that results, not China or Russia.

Basically, China, Russia and whatever evil little tinpot dictators they can get on their side are trying to use the UN to legitimise another round of war and imperialism, and they think we are stupid enough to believe they are doing all this to prevent war.

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tallowood

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1927 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:34am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:17am:

tallowood wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2025 at 12:33pm:

Problem with an international tribunal is it isn't politically independent.

An ICJ under the auspices of the UN constituted to resolve disutes between nations, backed by a UNSC without veto, would indeed "save mankind from the scourge of war".
Such an ICJ would most certainly be "politically independent", because its task would be to settle disputes between nations. guided by the UNUDHR.
Political disputes, like Russia-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine would be overruled by the principles of the UNUDHR as adjudicated by the ICJ.

.....

Geoffrey Robinson in a conversation with Phillip Adams noted the crippling effect of the UNSC veto; but he went off on a long-winded tangent (typical lawyer) about 'rules of war' including definitions of 'collateral damage' and 'proportional response' , seemingly oblivious to the fact these things involve murder in war regardless of how you define them.
The UN's 'rules of war' themselves defeat the very purpose of the UN "to save mankind from the scourge of war".

All good in theory but..

Quote:

The priority between national and international law depends on a country's legal system, which is typically either monist or dualist. In monist systems, international law is automatically part of domestic law and takes precedence. In dualist systems, international law must be incorporated into domestic law through legislation to be enforceable, and if a conflict arises, the national law usually prevails

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1928 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:35am

freediver wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:20am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:17am:

An ICJ under the auspices of the UN constituted to resolve disutes between nations, backed by a UNSC without veto, would indeed "save mankind from the scourge of war".

Corrupt, evil regimes like the Chinese communist party, North Korea, Putin etc will magically work together to prevent war.

No they won't, which is why we need a UNSC without veto backing an ICJ guided by the UNUDHR, and elimination of the absurd 'rules of war' clauses in the current UN Charter - do read my post and at least try to address it.

Including the added bit you missed:

Geoffrey Robinson in a conversation with Phillip Adams noted the crippling effect of the UNSC veto; but he went off on a long-winded tangent (typical lawyer) about 'rules of war' including definitions of 'collateral damage' and 'proportional response' , seemingly oblivious to the fact these things involve murder in war regardless of how you define them.

The UN's 'rules of war' themselves defeat the very purpose of the UN "to save mankind from the scourge of war".

The rest of your post is irrelevant, because you haven't addressed my my post at all.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6180	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1929 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:43am Quote: we need a UNSC without veto There has been practical reason based on reality why UNSC members have power of veto.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1930 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:48am

tallowood wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:34am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:17am:

tallowood wrote on Dec 3^rd, 2025 at 12:33pm:

Problem with an international tribunal is it isn't politically independent.

An ICJ under the auspices of the UN constituted to resolve disutes between nations, backed by a UNSC without veto, would indeed "save mankind from the scourge of war".
Such an ICJ would most certainly be "politically independent", because its task would be to settle disputes between nations. guided by the UNUDHR.
Political disputes, like Russia-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine would be overruled by the principles of the UNUDHR as adjudicated by the ICJ.

.....

Geoffrey Robinson in a conversation with Phillip Adams noted the crippling effect of the UNSC veto; but he went off on a long-winded tangent (typical lawyer) about 'rules of war' including definitions of 'collateral damage' and 'proportional response' , seemingly oblivious to the fact these things involve murder in war regardless of how you define them.
The UN's 'rules of war' themselves defeat the very purpose of the UN "to save mankind from the scourge of war".

All good in theory but..

At least you have considered the matter, unlike FD who is only displaying his CDS - a play on TDS....

Quote:

The priority between national and international law depends on a country's legal system, which is typically either monist or dualist. In monist systems, international law is automatically part of domestic law and takes precedence. In dualist systems, international law must be incorporated into domestic law through legislation to be enforceable, and if a conflict arises, the national law usually prevails

Correct.

Yet in 1945, delegates of the smaller nations present at the UN's founding, were prepared to sign up a UN Charter minus the UNSC veto.

iow, they were prepared to forgo the ancient concept of absolute national sovereignty (the Westphalian 1648 sovereignty concept) to establish international law for the first time in history.

But the big boys - US and USSR - won the day.

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freediver

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1931 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:51am

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:35am:

freediver wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:20am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:17am:

An ICJ under the auspices of the UN constituted to resolve disutes between nations, backed by a UNSC without veto, would indeed "save mankind from the scourge of war".

Corrupt, evil regimes like the Chinese communist party, North Korea, Putin etc will magically work together to prevent war.

No they won't,

Yes they will. That is exactly why the CCP has been trying to either buy or exert influence on every small nation it can - so that it can use the UN to legitimise it's evil plans.

You are a great example of the CCP's evil and double speak. You have recently been reassuring us that it plans to re-unite with Taiwan peacefully, but see no contradiction or hypocrisy when you turn around and say that China plans to starve the Taiwanese to death, slaughter anyone who gets in their way, and then warn us that there will be war and it will not be China's fault if any other nations come to Taiwan's assistance and China is "forced" to start WWIII.

Evil, corrupt regimes working tirelessly to undermine the UN and use it to legitimise war, to legitimise China and Russia's next round of imperialism, while telling everyone the UN is the only mechanism to prevent war. And of course, refraining from invading Taiwan and killing millions of people is not an option for avoiding war. Refraining from invading Ukraine is not an option for preventing war. The only option we are being given to avoid war is to let China and Russia get away with waging war on their weaker neighbours.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6180	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1932 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:57am Quote: But the big boys - US and USSR - won the day. As I said there has been practical reason based on realism of real politic for that.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1933 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 11:05am

freediver wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:51am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:35am:

freediver wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:20am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:17am:

An ICJ under the auspices of the UN constituted to resolve disutes between nations, backed by a UNSC without veto, would indeed "save mankind from the scourge of war".

Corrupt, evil regimes like the Chinese communist party, North Korea, Putin etc will magically work together to prevent war.

No they won't,

Yes they will.

Low IQ?

You said "Corrupt, evil regimes like the Chinese communist party, North Korea, Putin etc will magically work together to prevent war."

I said they won't, in the absence of effective international law.

ie, I'm agreeing with your sarcastic comment.

Quote:

You are a great example of the CCP's evil and double speak.

Amazing: for the sake of the argument re establishing international law, I agreed with you, as noted above.

But you were too dense - too crippled by your CDS sydrome, to comprehend I was agreeing with you.

You of course think only the democracies are capable of signing up to international law, but the US "the beacon on the hill" rejected it in 1945 (by demanding the veto).

The rest of your post is invalidated by your CDS....'China Derangement Syndrome'

Deplorable.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 14376 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1934 - Dec 4^th, 2025 at 11:10am tallowood wrote on Dec 4^th, 2025 at 10:57am: Quote: But the big boys - US and USSR - won the day. As I said there has been practical reason based on realism of real politic for that. The 'practical reasons' based on 'realism' amount to might is right , unless you can show otherwise.
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