Australian Politics Forum - Ukraine war update

thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1665 - Apr 30^th, 2025 at 3:25pm

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 2:32pm:

The “nazi” and “NATO” claims are just excuses.

Not in Putin's eyes; he has historical fact on his side, not to mention the "glorious" defeat of the Nazis who attacked the USSR - said 'nazis' now represented (in Putin's eyes) by NATO who insist on encroaching into former Russian majority-speaking lands.

Trump agrees with Putin on those things (even if Trump really wants to 'reverse Nixon', to destroy the China-Russia axis, rather than "save beautiful Russian and Ukrainian lives").

Quote:

SadKangaroo actually supported my claim.

KangAnon: <"No objections to Mexico invading and taking them back??
I bet they'd love to have Austin contributing to their economy and not the US.">

Did I misread SK?

Obviously Zelensky thought he could rely on NATO's backing to drive Russia out of Ukraine, including its Russian majority-speaking provinces (who are happy to join the Russian Federation), whereas NO-ONE would support Mexico to drive the US out of those former Mexican provinces, whatever the Spanish thinkers think.

It's 'might is right', you see - because the UNSC was incapacitated by your (widely-held) obsolete "absolute national sovereignty" ideology.

Deplorable.

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« Last Edit: Apr 30^th, 2025 at 3:50pm by thegreatdivide »

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 49044 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1666 - Apr 30^th, 2025 at 4:20pm Do you have any evidence the ruzzian speaking provinces actually want to join ruzzia?
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ProudKangaroo

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1667 - Apr 30^th, 2025 at 4:20pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 1:18pm:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 4:24pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 1:39pm:

Did you decide that crap about ruzzian speaking provinces going to ruzzia because of violent conquest?

So islamic speaking parts of Australia should be ceded to Indonesia?

There are regions across the southern United States with Spanish-speaking populations just as high, if not higher, than the proportion of Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine. And, of course, those parts of the US were, quite literally, once part of Mexico.

No objections to Mexico invading and taking them back?

I bet they'd love to have Austin contributing to their economy and not the US.

Thanks for pointing out Monk's errors.

Quote:

Or do you need to further refine your justification for Russia starting the war with Ukraine, invading them and seizing their land, again, so it doesn't apply to the US and Mexico?

I'll wait...

Russia invaded Ukraine because (in Putin's eyes) Zelensky is part of a "nazi" plot to join NATO.

Ok, so it's about NATO membership then?

So what is Russia's end game?

If NATO Membership for Ukraine is taken off the table, should they withdraw and return the land they stole?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1668 - Apr 30^th, 2025 at 7:13pm

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 4:20pm:

Do you have any evidence the ruzzian speaking provinces actually want to join ruzzia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#:~:...

The events in Kyiv that ousted Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych on 22 February 2014 sparked both pro-Russian and anti-separatism[35] demonstrations in Crimea. At the same time, Russian president Vladimir Putin told his security chiefs to begin work on "returning Crimea to Russia"

OK... dissension among Crimeans; Putin decided that's good enough reason for him to "begin work on returning Crimea to Russia", to avoid the "nazis" silencing the pro-Russian party.

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Daves2017

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1669 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 12:04am

ProudKangaroo wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 4:20pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 1:18pm:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 4:24pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 1:39pm:

Did you decide that crap about ruzzian speaking provinces going to ruzzia because of violent conquest?

So islamic speaking parts of Australia should be ceded to Indonesia?

There are regions across the southern United States with Spanish-speaking populations just as high, if not higher, than the proportion of Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine. And, of course, those parts of the US were, quite literally, once part of Mexico.

No objections to Mexico invading and taking them back?

I bet they'd love to have Austin contributing to their economy and not the US.

Thanks for pointing out Monk's errors.

Quote:

Or do you need to further refine your justification for Russia starting the war with Ukraine, invading them and seizing their land, again, so it doesn't apply to the US and Mexico?

I'll wait...

Russia invaded Ukraine because (in Putin's eyes) Zelensky is part of a "nazi" plot to join NATO.

Ok, so it's about NATO membership then?

So what is Russia's end game?

If NATO Membership for Ukraine is taken off the table, should they withdraw and return the land they stole?

I don’t know a lot but during my childhood travels and upbringing I can assure you that if you travel 500 km in any direction in Europe you will be considered a possible enemy .

This is why Europe is always at war.

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“Two incomes of $120-150k a year is the minimum required to live in Australia. You need to find a career that can get you to that in the future, or you’re cooked,”

Fair go!?

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1670 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 8:30am

Quote:

US and Ukraine sign minerals deal that solidifies investment in Kyiv’s defense against Russia

Move seals a deal to create a fund the Trump administration says will begin to repay roughly $175bn provided to Ukraine

The US and Kyiv have signed an agreement to share profits and royalties from the future sale of Ukrainian minerals and rare earths, sealing a deal that Donald Trump has said will provide an economic incentive for the US to continue to invest in Ukraine’s defense and its reconstruction after he brokers a peace deal with Russia.

The minerals deal, which has been the subject of tense negotiations for months and nearly fell through hours before it was signed, will establish a US-Ukraine Reconstruction Investment Fund that the Trump administration has said will begin to repay an estimated $175bn in aid provided to Ukraine since the beginning of the war.

“This agreement signals clearly to Russia that the Trump administration is committed to a peace process centered on a free, sovereign, and prosperous Ukraine over the long term,” said Scott Bessent, the US treasury secretary, in a statement.

“President Trump envisioned this partnership between the American people and the Ukrainian people to show both sides’ commitment to lasting peace and prosperity in Ukraine. And to be clear, no state or person who financed or supplied the Russian war machine will be allowed to benefit from the reconstruction of Ukraine.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/30/us-ukraine-minerals-deal-russia

Could be Vlad has overplayed his hand, angering the Narcissist-in-Chief with continued delay in organising a ceasefire to end the war. Vlad can’t afford to stop the war—seeing a million armed, psychotic men return to jobs that aren’t there? Not possible, Vlad might get errrr ventilated.

$US175Bn is WAY overoptimistic a figure for US help to Ukraine! E.g. sending tanks, minus side armor and not reconditioned to be ready for war, saves the US a motza in decommissioning costs. Meanwhile the US army moves to a different tank altogether. Real figure excluding factors like saved decommissioning cost more like $130Bn. Still, you take what you can get and with some creative bookkeeping and counting the fact you can buy more US arms all good. At the worst—maybe pay $30Bn more than is just.

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ProudKangaroo

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1671 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 9:41am

Daves2017 wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 12:04am:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 4:20pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 1:18pm:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 4:24pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 1:39pm:

Did you decide that crap about ruzzian speaking provinces going to ruzzia because of violent conquest?

So islamic speaking parts of Australia should be ceded to Indonesia?

There are regions across the southern United States with Spanish-speaking populations just as high, if not higher, than the proportion of Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine. And, of course, those parts of the US were, quite literally, once part of Mexico.

No objections to Mexico invading and taking them back?

I bet they'd love to have Austin contributing to their economy and not the US.

Thanks for pointing out Monk's errors.

Quote:

Or do you need to further refine your justification for Russia starting the war with Ukraine, invading them and seizing their land, again, so it doesn't apply to the US and Mexico?

I'll wait...

Russia invaded Ukraine because (in Putin's eyes) Zelensky is part of a "nazi" plot to join NATO.

Ok, so it's about NATO membership then?

So what is Russia's end game?

If NATO Membership for Ukraine is taken off the table, should they withdraw and return the land they stole?

I don’t know a lot but during my childhood travels and upbringing I can assure you that if you travel 500 km in any direction in Europe you will be considered a possible enemy .

This is why Europe is always at war.

I don't have that sort of personal experience, but I'm also not the one making the claim that Russia and Putin's concern is NATO membership for Ukraine as part of some "nazi" plot.

That's why I'm asking, if it is about NATO membership, and a war was started because of it, the war must have a goal in mind, something they're trying to achieve by fighting it.

Since divide is telling us what Putin thinks, surely he must know what the endgame of the war is.

My assumption given that it's about a Nazi plot for Ukraine to join NATO, then stopping that must be the goal?

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 49044 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1672 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 10:17am 1978-9 I travelled Rotterdam–Paris–Florence–Zurich–Munich–Rotterdam. Only “hostility” was gypsy women trying to pick my pocket!
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1673 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 12:42pm

Jovial Monk wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 8:30am:

Quote:

US and Ukraine sign minerals deal that solidifies investment in Kyiv’s defense against Russia

Move seals a deal to create a fund the Trump administration says will begin to repay roughly $175bn provided to Ukraine

The US and Kyiv have signed an agreement to share profits and royalties from the future sale of Ukrainian minerals and rare earths, sealing a deal that Donald Trump has said will provide an economic incentive for the US to continue to invest in Ukraine’s defense and its reconstruction after he brokers a peace deal with Russia.

The minerals deal, which has been the subject of tense negotiations for months and nearly fell through hours before it was signed, will establish a US-Ukraine Reconstruction Investment Fund that the Trump administration has said will begin to repay an estimated $175bn in aid provided to Ukraine since the beginning of the war.

“This agreement signals clearly to Russia that the Trump administration is committed to a peace process centered on a free, sovereign, and prosperous Ukraine over the long term,” said Scott Bessent, the US treasury secretary, in a statement.

“President Trump envisioned this partnership between the American people and the Ukrainian people to show both sides’ commitment to lasting peace and prosperity in Ukraine. And to be clear, no state or person who financed or supplied the Russian war machine will be allowed to benefit from the reconstruction of Ukraine.”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/apr/30/us-ukraine-minerals-deal-russia

Could be Vlad has overplayed his hand, angering the Narcissist-in-Chief with continued delay in organising a ceasefire to end the war.

Indeed, Putin is proving even to me he is a fool (regardless of Russia's links to Crimea etc, which you deny).

Quote:

Vlad can’t afford to stop the war—seeing a million armed, psychotic men return to jobs that aren’t there? Not possible, Vlad might get errrr ventilated.

Yes: it's interesting that two current war criminals sought by the ICC, namely,
Putin and Netanyahu, want the wars to continue to save their own hides (in Net's case, he is facing charges of corruption at home).

Quote:

$US175Bn is WAY overoptimistic a figure for US help to Ukraine! E.g. sending tanks, minus side armor and not reconditioned to be ready for war, saves the US a motza in decommissioning costs. Meanwhile the US army moves to a different tank altogether. Real figure excluding factors like saved decommissioning cost more like $130Bn. Still, you take what you can get and with some creative bookkeeping and counting the fact you can buy more US arms all good. At the worst—maybe pay $30Bn more than is just.

Trump is sick of paying for Europe's wars, I sympathize with him.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1674 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 1:08pm

ProudKangaroo wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 9:41am:

Daves2017 wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 12:04am:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 4:20pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2025 at 1:18pm:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 4:24pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Apr 29^th, 2025 at 1:39pm:

Did you decide that crap about ruzzian speaking provinces going to ruzzia because of violent conquest?

So islamic speaking parts of Australia should be ceded to Indonesia?

There are regions across the southern United States with Spanish-speaking populations just as high, if not higher, than the proportion of Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine. And, of course, those parts of the US were, quite literally, once part of Mexico.

No objections to Mexico invading and taking them back?

I bet they'd love to have Austin contributing to their economy and not the US.

Thanks for pointing out Monk's errors.

Quote:

Or do you need to further refine your justification for Russia starting the war with Ukraine, invading them and seizing their land, again, so it doesn't apply to the US and Mexico?

I'll wait...

Russia invaded Ukraine because (in Putin's eyes) Zelensky is part of a "nazi" plot to join NATO.

Ok, so it's about NATO membership then?

So what is Russia's end game?

If NATO Membership for Ukraine is taken off the table, should they withdraw and return the land they stole?

I don’t know a lot but during my childhood travels and upbringing I can assure you that if you travel 500 km in any direction in Europe you will be considered a possible enemy .

This is why Europe is always at war.

I don't have that sort of personal experience, but I'm also not the one making the claim that Russia and Putin's concern is NATO membership for Ukraine as part of some "nazi" plot.

Did you miss it? When Ukraine's pro-Russian leader was toppled by anti-Russian forces (ie, NATO "nazis", in Putin's eyes) in 2014, protests and violence in Crimea erupted between Russians and non-Russians. Putin realized the time had come to restore Crimea's former status, ie, as in the former USSR (and before that, the Russian Empire).

Quote:

That's why I'm asking, if it is about NATO membership, and a war was started because of it, the war must have a goal in mind, something they're trying to achieve by fighting it.

You are asking because you are apparently too blind to read info previously presented to you.

Quote:

Since divide is telling us what Putin thinks, surely he must know what the endgame of the war is.

I understand Putin's position on Crimea and other Russian majority speaking areas; but I am now dismayed by Putin's refusal to accept Trump's plan to end the war.

Quote:

My assumption given that it's about a Nazi plot for Ukraine to join NATO, then stopping that must be the goal?

No assumption - in Putin's eyes - as explained above.

My question now is, why did Trump say he could end the war quickly, if he knew Putin is concerned by NATO's "nazi" encroachment into former Russia-affiliated lands. Trump offered nearly everything Putin wants, and Putin apparently has thrown it away.

My advice to Putin: don't spurn Trump, even if the latter is seeking the Nobel Peace Prize (!)...

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Jovial Monk

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1675 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 1:23pm

Putler doesn’t believe in “nazi” or “NATO” nonsense as is obvious to all but idealogues by now.

Putler wants CONQUESTS!

“The fall of the Soviet Empire was the tragedy of the century” or wtte.

He is a “strong man” so must conquer because fixing ruzzia’s woes is not glamorous or possible: e.g. the demographic trap, ruzzia is running out of ruzzians. Infrastructure not maintained for decades another.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1676 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 1:58pm

Jovial Monk wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 1:23pm:

Putler doesn’t believe in “nazi” or “NATO” nonsense as is obvious to all but idealogues by now.

Oh.. so Trump is a NATO ideologue whio happened to see Putin's pov....and a way to stop wasting US resources in another European war.

Quote:

Putler wants CONQUESTS!

“The fall of the Soviet Empire was the tragedy of the century” or wtte.

You blind ideologue: Putin actually wanted to join NATO after the fall of the "communist" USSR. The US rejected Putin's desires.

Quote:

He is a “strong man” so must conquer because fixing ruzzia’s woes is not glamorous or possible: e.g. the demographic trap, ruzzia is running out of ruzzians. Infrastructure not maintained for decades another.

You blind ideologue, the current global financial system, instituted after WW2, is dysfunctional, and Russia post fall of the USSR is merely one of the casualties (while US and German infrastructure is also poorly maintained); even Trump is fuming, after China rose on the back of inadequate WTO rules which allowed foreign capital to profit on the back of China's low wages (trade being determined by WTO "comparative advantage" dogma, you see...).

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 49044 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1677 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 2:04pm Sure, Putler played with the idea of joining NATO. Would never do so—Article 5. Putler wants CONQUEST, restore the soviet empire whose fall distressed him so much. No ideologie involved, capiche?
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ProudKangaroo

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1678 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 2:07pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 1:08pm:

Did you miss it? When Ukraine's pro-Russian leader was toppled by anti-Russian forces (ie, NATO "nazis", in Putin's eyes) in 2014, protests and violence in Crimea erupted between Russians and non-Russians. Putin realized the time had come to restore Crimea's former status, ie, as in the former USSR (and before that, the Russian Empire).

What..!? Toppled? You mean their democratic election, where the people chose an anti-corruption and Pro-Ukrainian leader?

Quote:

You are asking because you are apparently too blind to read info previously presented to you.

I'm aware of what you're posting. Your problem is that it is less a description of what is happening and more a retelling of the Kremin line. It's disturbing you can't see the difference.

Quote:

I understand Putin's position on Crimea and other Russian majority speaking areas; but I am now dismayed by Putin's refusal to accept Trump's plan to end the war.

It's as if it has nothing to do with NATO and more about wanting Ukraine to be part of Russia again, rather than an independent state...

Ever get the feeling you've been lied to?

Quote:

No assumption - in Putin's eyes - as explained above.

My question now is, why did Trump say he could end the war quickly, if he knew Putin is concerned by NATO's "nazi" encroachment into former Russia-affiliated lands. Trump offered nearly everything Putin wants, and Putin apparently has thrown it away.

My advice to Putin: don't spurn Trump, even if the latter is seeking the Nobel Peace Prize (!)...

Only Putin knows what he thinks, unless you're being informed by Kremlin talking points.

And with all that, you still didn't answer my question.

But since we're talking so much about the Kremlin, do you know what their talking points are as to why Russia invaded Ukraine?

- "Denazification"

- NATO Expansion

- Protection of Russian Speakers

- Restoring Historical Unity

- Preemptive Self-Defence

Sounds very familiar doesn't it...

So I'm left wondering, where are you getting this information, what source, so pro-Russian that they're feeding you literal Kremlin talking points that you're regurgitating here as some sort of learned knowledge you have, who are they?

Have you looked into their links and agenda?

Because they're using you to justify Russia attacking Ukraine and killing so very many innocent people, or you're simply being a contrarian dick head.

How are you so stupid to fall for this?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1679 - May 2^nd, 2025 at 2:47pm

ProudKangaroo wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 2:07pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 2^nd, 2025 at 1:08pm:

Did you miss it? When Ukraine's pro-Russian leader was toppled by anti-Russian forces (ie, NATO "nazis", in Putin's eyes) in 2014, protests and violence in Crimea erupted between Russians and non-Russians. Putin realized the time had come to restore Crimea's former status, ie, as in the former USSR (and before that, the Russian Empire).

What..!? Toppled? You mean their democratic election, where the people chose an anti-corruption and Pro-Ukrainian leader?

Which resulted in political conflict among pro-Russian and pro "nazi" (in Putin's eyes) factions in Crimea

Quote:

I'm aware of what you're posting. Your problem is that it is less a description of what is happening and more a retelling of the Kremin line. It's disturbing you can't see the difference.

How do YOU see the division which arose among the majority pro-Russian, and minority anti-Russian parties in Crimea, after the ousting of the pro Russian Ukrainian leader?

Quote:

It's as if it has nothing to do with NATO and more about wanting Ukraine to be part of Russia again, rather than an independent state...

Ever get the feeling you've been lied to?

No, the majority pro Russian party in Crimea wants to remain with Russia, since Ukraine wants to side with NATO.

Quote:

Only Putin knows what he thinks, unless you're being informed by Kremlin talking points.

I was informed by what I understood TRUMP believed, as the basis for saying he (Trump) would "end the war in 24 hours".

Quote:

And with all that, you still didn't answer my question.

Yes I did.

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