Australian Politics Forum - Ukraine war update

greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 149297 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1455 - Mar 16^th, 2025 at 7:24pm Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 7:22pm: Leroy has joined the sewer. How appropriate. I've still never even once clicked on to that website. From what I've heard though, he'll fit in nicely there.
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Leroy

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1456 - Mar 16^th, 2025 at 7:27pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 7:14pm:

Leroy wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 6:34pm:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 5:47pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

How can you claim Russia are the victims of Ukraine and NATO, and this is Putin's justification for attacking Crimea and the greater Ukraine when you in the same post say that Finland didn't interest Putin because the Russian population was too low?

Finland applied to join NATO on 18 May 2022 and it's membership wasn't granted until 4 April 2023, nearly a year after.

Public and political support for joining NATO remained relatively low, until Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022. This dramatically shifted Finnish public opinion, with support for NATO membership skyrocketing from around 20–30% to over 75% within months.

That's over a year that Putin had the change to invade them to prevent them joining.

But now you shift the goalpost, by mistake it seems, claiming that:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

[Re Finland: there are a tiny number of Russians living in Finland].

You're peddling Kremlin talking points and pretending they hold weight. They don’t.

Putin is not some misunderstood victim of Western aggression in the form of NATO, he’s the architect of an imperialist war, and your mental gymnastics to excuse it fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.

Dismissing counterarguments with lazy handwaves like "refuted above" or "explained already" doesn’t make your position any less hollow. It just exposes the fact that you can’t substantiate your claims when "the above" does nothing of the sort.

This isn’t just a disagreement, it’s an ideological chasm. I deal in facts and reality. You, on the other hand, appear determined to twist both to fit a worldview that’s conveniently pro-Trump and pro-Russia.

And let’s be clear: I have no interest in indulging a fantasy where Putin is the good guy. If you’re unwilling to engage with reality, there’s no point pretending this discussion is anything but a waste of time.

We all agree on our side, if you just dismiss Russia without trying to understand where they sit then you have no hope of peace. Russia have to come out of this on their terms, if you want it to finish on Ukraine's terms then its a full on war to achieve that. So thats the options, peace on Russian terms or war.

Just give in to the aggressor?

FFS Roll Eyes

Thats up to the people of Ukraine to decide.

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Trump derangement syndrome
Fareed Zakaria defined the term as "hatred of President Trump so intense that it impairs people's judgment"

Lets check in at 5pm on 23rd July 2025 then at 5pm on 30th July

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ProudKangaroo

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1457 - Mar 16^th, 2025 at 9:34pm

Leroy wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 6:34pm:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 5:47pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

How can you claim Russia are the victims of Ukraine and NATO, and this is Putin's justification for attacking Crimea and the greater Ukraine when you in the same post say that Finland didn't interest Putin because the Russian population was too low?

Finland applied to join NATO on 18 May 2022 and it's membership wasn't granted until 4 April 2023, nearly a year after.

Public and political support for joining NATO remained relatively low, until Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022. This dramatically shifted Finnish public opinion, with support for NATO membership skyrocketing from around 20–30% to over 75% within months.

That's over a year that Putin had the change to invade them to prevent them joining.

But now you shift the goalpost, by mistake it seems, claiming that:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

[Re Finland: there are a tiny number of Russians living in Finland].

You're peddling Kremlin talking points and pretending they hold weight. They don’t.

Putin is not some misunderstood victim of Western aggression in the form of NATO, he’s the architect of an imperialist war, and your mental gymnastics to excuse it fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.

Dismissing counterarguments with lazy handwaves like "refuted above" or "explained already" doesn’t make your position any less hollow. It just exposes the fact that you can’t substantiate your claims when "the above" does nothing of the sort.

This isn’t just a disagreement, it’s an ideological chasm. I deal in facts and reality. You, on the other hand, appear determined to twist both to fit a worldview that’s conveniently pro-Trump and pro-Russia.

And let’s be clear: I have no interest in indulging a fantasy where Putin is the good guy. If you’re unwilling to engage with reality, there’s no point pretending this discussion is anything but a waste of time.

We all agree on our side, if you just dismiss Russia without trying to understand where they sit then you have no hope of peace. Russia have to come out of this on their terms, if you want it to finish on Ukraine's terms then its a full on war to achieve that. So thats the options, peace on Russian terms or war.

You're complaining because people have found fault with you NATO excuse.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1458 - Mar 17^th, 2025 at 4:57pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 7:14pm:

Leroy wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 6:34pm:

ProudKangaroo wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 5:47pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

How can you claim Russia are the victims of Ukraine and NATO, and this is Putin's justification for attacking Crimea and the greater Ukraine when you in the same post say that Finland didn't interest Putin because the Russian population was too low?

Finland applied to join NATO on 18 May 2022 and it's membership wasn't granted until 4 April 2023, nearly a year after.

Public and political support for joining NATO remained relatively low, until Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022. This dramatically shifted Finnish public opinion, with support for NATO membership skyrocketing from around 20–30% to over 75% within months.

That's over a year that Putin had the change to invade them to prevent them joining.

But now you shift the goalpost, by mistake it seems, claiming that:

thegreatdivide wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 12:02pm:

[Re Finland: there are a tiny number of Russians living in Finland].

You're peddling Kremlin talking points and pretending they hold weight. They don’t.

Putin is not some misunderstood victim of Western aggression in the form of NATO, he’s the architect of an imperialist war, and your mental gymnastics to excuse it fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.

Dismissing counterarguments with lazy handwaves like "refuted above" or "explained already" doesn’t make your position any less hollow. It just exposes the fact that you can’t substantiate your claims when "the above" does nothing of the sort.

This isn’t just a disagreement, it’s an ideological chasm. I deal in facts and reality. You, on the other hand, appear determined to twist both to fit a worldview that’s conveniently pro-Trump and pro-Russia.

And let’s be clear: I have no interest in indulging a fantasy where Putin is the good guy. If you’re unwilling to engage with reality, there’s no point pretending this discussion is anything but a waste of time.

We all agree on our side, if you just dismiss Russia without trying to understand where they sit then you have no hope of peace. Russia have to come out of this on their terms, if you want it to finish on Ukraine's terms then its a full on war to achieve that. So thats the options, peace on Russian terms or war.

Just give in to the aggressor?

FFS Roll Eyes

Who was the "aggressor" in the Cold War?

The current war in Ukraine has its roots in the aftermath of the Cold War; when the US rejected Russia's attempts to join the brave new world of capitalist democracies, and suffered a catastrophic loss in living standards until Putin restored Russia's economy (at least until the GFC when growth in most countries ceased).

Of course he wanted to restore Russia's status as a great power, but he made the mistake - after he couldn't eradicate poverty in Russia - of diverting to stupid historical/cultural issues re Ukraine as a part of Russian civilization.

Let's see if Trump can come to a deal with Putin, and then refuse to send any more arms to Zelensky.

That should end the war, if Zelensky wants to avoid losing all Ukraine - since non-US NATO isn't prepared to start a war against Russia, in the age of MAD?

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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 55130 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1459 - Mar 17^th, 2025 at 5:21pm greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 7:24pm: Jovial Monk wrote on Mar 16^th, 2025 at 7:22pm: Leroy has joined the sewer. How appropriate. I've still never even once clicked on to that website. From what I've heard though, he'll fit in nicely there. Awww diddims.
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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 51474 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1460 - Mar 17^th, 2025 at 5:21pm Whatever the case of the “aggressor” in the cold war there is an aggressor, Putler/ruzzia, now. The Baltics have been verbally threatened as has Finland. And giving in to an aggressor is a mug’s game called “appeasement.”
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Bobby.

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1461 - Mar 17^th, 2025 at 6:35pm

Kursk is over -

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0q198zyppqo

'Everything is finished': Ukrainian troops relive retreat from Kursk

2 hours ago

Ukrainian soldiers fighting in Russia's Kursk region have described scenes "like a horror movie" as they retreated from the front lines.

The BBC has received extensive accounts from Ukrainian troops, who recount a "catastrophic" withdrawal in the face of heavy fire, and columns of military equipment destroyed and constant attacks from swarms of Russian drones.

The soldiers, who spoke over social media, were given aliases to protect their identity. Some gave accounts of a "collapse" as Ukraine lost Sudzha, the largest town it held.

Ukrainian restrictions on travel to the front have meant it is not possible to get a full picture of the situation. But this is how five Ukrainian soldiers described to us what had happened.............

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ProudKangaroo Gold Member Offline The Sandstorm is coming 🎵Doo doo doo doo🎵 Posts: 21594 Meeanjin (Brisbane)	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1462 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 12:05am Bobby. wrote on Mar 17^th, 2025 at 6:35pm: Kursk is over - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0q198zyppqo 'Everything is finished': Ukrainian troops relive retreat from Kursk Conservative Twitter and Reddit are applauding and laughing at this. As if we needed any more proof that they've gone full pro-Russia...
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aquascoot Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 37208 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1463 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 6:05am The whole world is now relying on the " powers of persuasion" of the big fella to make a deal. Auto pen Biden did nothing Trump may yet " get it done". If he doesn't I don't think there are many other options and we will see an endless trench warfare. The left are genocidal in their desire to continue the carnage
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ProudKangaroo

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1464 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 6:44am

aquascoot wrote on Mar 18^th, 2025 at 6:05am:

The whole world is now relying on the " powers of persuasion" of the big fella to make a deal.

Auto pen Biden did nothing

Trump may yet " get it done".

If he doesn't I don't think there are many other options and we will see an endless trench warfare.

The left are genocidal in their desire to continue the carnage

This narrative shift from defending freedom and democracy to giving into Russia shows how weak Trump and MAGA are.

All because Trump lied to them, saying he'd end the way on day one and they're so desperate to pretend that didn't happen, he meant something else, or "who knew" that now Russia are the good guys.

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aquascoot

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1465 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 6:54am

I applaud the brave Ukrainians who spilt their blood to stop the wicked Russian invasion.

It became trench warfare 2 months in.
At this stage a deal should have been done.

Since then maybe a million have died for no situational change.

This waste of life and of infrastructure has been cheered on by keyboard warriors in the west.

The sort of gutless wonders who poop their pants at the thought of a mild virus and demand safety but offer no safety to the ukranian heroes.

There must be a special place in hell for such people.

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Bobby.

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1466 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 6:56am

https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-says-will-speak-with-putin-tuesday-about-end...

Trump and Putin to discuss power plants, land in talks to end Ukraine war

By Nathan Layne and Jeff Mason
March 18, 2025

Summary

Trump sees 'good chance' to end war in Ukraine

Trump will speak with Putin on Tuesday over ceasefire proposal

Kremlin confirms Putin to speak with Trump by phone

Ukraine supports 30-day ceasefire proposal

Russia demands Ukraine's neutrality, exclusion from NATO
WASHINGTON, March 17 (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump said he would speak to Russia's Vladimir Putin on Tuesday about ending the Ukraine war, with territorial concessions by Kyiv and control of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant likely to feature prominently in the talks.
"We want to see if we can bring that war to an end," Trump told reporters on Air Force One during a flight to the Washington area from Florida. "Maybe we can, maybe we can't, but I think we have a very good chance.

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ProudKangaroo

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1467 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 7:32am

aquascoot wrote on Mar 18^th, 2025 at 6:54am:

I applaud the brave Ukrainians who spilt their blood to stop the wicked Russian invasion.

It became trench warfare 2 months in.
At this stage a deal should have been done.

Since then maybe a million have died for no situational change.

This waste of life and of infrastructure has been cheered on by keyboard warriors in the west.

The situational change is that without that, Russia would have taken over all of Ukraine leaving its people at the mercy of an authoritarian regime with a proven record of brutality. What then? Do we pretend that submission ensures peace rather than subjugation?

Your unwavering devotion to Trump has led you to parrot Kremlin propaganda, condemning Ukraine and the international community for daring to resist imperialist aggression. It’s a perverse inversion of reality, one that conveniently absolves the true aggressor while maligning those who defend themselves.

Quote:

The sort of gutless wonders who poop their pants at the thought of a mild virus and demand safety but offer no safety to the ukranian heroes.

There must be a special place in hell for such people.

What is gutless is not only caving in to Russia, but joining their digital army.

Moscow has a long history of disregarding agreements, treating treaties as mere pauses before the next advance. What happens when their so-called "peace deal" expires? When the Kremlin inevitably launches another "special military operation" to seize even more land?

Will you then blame Trump for brokering a deal so catastrophically naive that it enabled further bloodshed? Or will you, once again, deflect responsibility, pretending that each successive act of Russian aggression is some unforeseeable anomaly rather than the predictable consequence of appeasement?

Do we blame that on Trump for making such a bad deal? Are the lives lost from that point Trump's fault?

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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 55774 Gender:	Re: Ukraine war update Reply #1468 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 8:41am “My fellow Americans, I’m pleased to tell you today that I’ve signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Ukraine war update
Reply #1469 - Mar 18^th, 2025 at 10:54am

ProudKangaroo wrote on Mar 18^th, 2025 at 7:32am:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 18^th, 2025 at 6:54am:

I applaud the brave Ukrainians who spilt their blood to stop the wicked Russian invasion.

It became trench warfare 2 months in.
At this stage a deal should have been done.

Since then maybe a million have died for no situational change.

This waste of life and of infrastructure has been cheered on by keyboard warriors in the west.

The situational change is that without that, Russia would have taken over all of Ukraine leaving its people at the mercy of an authoritarian regime with a proven record of brutality. What then? Do we pretend that submission ensures peace rather than subjugation?

What was the "authoritarian regime with a proven record of brutality", after the USSR collapsed and Russia wanted to join the capitalist liberal democracies - but was spurned?

Quote:

Your unwavering devotion to Trump has led you to parrot Kremlin propaganda, condemning Ukraine and the international community for daring to resist imperialist aggression.

The aggressor in Putin's eyes was/is American imperialism; indeed Trump wants Putin on side, so the US - seeking to maintain global hegemony - can resist the rise of the much more capable competitor that is China.

Quote:

It’s a perverse inversion of reality, one that conveniently absolves the true aggressor while maligning those who defend themselves.

Did you ever answer the question: who was the "aggressor" in the Cold War?

(I see Monk merely dismisses the question, not wanting to consider the competing ideologies behind the Cold War which remain a factor in the causation of the current coflict, despite the apparent resolution of the Cold War (when the USSR collapsed): there are a number of Russian speaking areas within the current Ukrainian borders (hence Trump's acknowledgement of the "very compex issues" involved in getting a deal).

Quote:

What happens when their so-called "peace deal" expires?

A good deal between Trump and Putin won't expire, and Ukraine will be more internally stable if it lets go of the Russian speaking provinces.

Quote:

....the predictable consequence of appeasement?

On "appeasement": Trump wants a deal with Putin which rules out war between Ukraine and Russia, which is not "appeasement", since 5 Russian speaking provinces of Ukraine ought to belong to Russia.

If Hilter had not made the mistake of invading Poland, then Chamberland would be considered a peacemaker, not an appeaser. You keep saying what Russia will do in the future, without knowing what Trump's deal with Putin is.

Meanwhile, the killing goes on.

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« Last Edit: Mar 18^th, 2025 at 11:20am by thegreatdivide »

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Poll
Question: Where will Zelensky have safe heaven?
Australia/New Zealand 1 (25.0%) French overseas territory 2 (50.0%) Americas 1 (25.0%) Somewhere else 0 (0.0%) Total votes: 4 « Created by: tallowood on: Dec 10^th, 2025 at 3:21pm »