Australian Politics Forum - I Was Only Nineteen

MeisterEckhart

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #90 - Dec 10^th, 2023 at 2:20pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 2:11pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 12:52pm:

In the '60s, communism's spread to Australia didn't just appear possible, it appeared inevitable.

To fools it did, yes

The fear of the spread of communism to Australia was a false perception with no concrete evidence that it could become a reality. The fear was whipped up by East European migrants and Menzies and his sycophant Holt. They just wanted to join the Yanks and help them out. We still do that today, under false assumptions to trick the voters

The Communist party in Australia was so small and insignificant, no one believed it could rise and get elected. Communism was never going to get a foothold in Australia, the notion that it would was ridiculous. As a conscript, I never believed it, nor did thousands of other conscripts. It was all bullshit

Easy to revise history once the outcomes are all laid out for you - any fool can do that.

Australians didn't need Eastern Europeans to warn them of the perceived danger from Southeast Asia in the '60s.

Violent anti-colonial sentiment was everywhere in Asia, with Australia seen as their ally - which it was.

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Bias_2012

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #91 - Dec 10^th, 2023 at 3:39pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 2:20pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 2:11pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 12:52pm:

In the '60s, communism's spread to Australia didn't just appear possible, it appeared inevitable.

To fools it did, yes

The fear of the spread of communism to Australia was a false perception with no concrete evidence that it could become a reality. The fear was whipped up by East European migrants and Menzies and his sycophant Holt. They just wanted to join the Yanks and help them out. We still do that today, under false assumptions to trick the voters

The Communist party in Australia was so small and insignificant, no one believed it could rise and get elected. Communism was never going to get a foothold in Australia, the notion that it would was ridiculous. As a conscript, I never believed it, nor did thousands of other conscripts. It was all bullshit

Easy to revise history once the outcomes are all laid out for you - any fool can do that.

Australians didn't need Eastern Europeans to warn them of the perceived danger from Southeast Asia in the '60s.

Violent anti-colonial sentiment was everywhere in Asia, with Australia seen as their ally - which it was.

The outcomes proved what I was feeling at the time when conscription started. That thousands of young blokes will fight in Vietnam for a nation that didn't give a stuff about it, and which had to refer to a map of the World to find Vietnam on it. My parents sent me not one letter in the two years I was a nasho. My dad sold my vintage car to a scrap metal dealer. My Mum tossed out all my trade books. Other guys received Dear John letters. My girl friend went out with other blokes, my sister told me. Guys were jailed for resisting the birthday lottery draft. What I felt in the beginning, came to fruition

Australia only abstained from it's collective wanking about a communist threat when it saw children burned from napalm, village huts in flames, agent orange defoliation, body bags, etc

Another thing that played on conscripts' minds was fighting alongside a nation that had just murdered it's President, and killed his senator brother, then killed a prominent civil rights leader, as well as having major organized crime syndicates. Somehow Australia forgave all this, and expected conscripts to forgive it all too, to the point we had to give our lives for it, while the rest of Australia carried on wanking, scared of a non-existent communism

I had misgivings right from the start about us getting involved in that so called "Policing Action". I wasn't at all surprised we and the Yanks lost. Our military was still using WW2 doctrine, problem was, it wasn't WW2, that finished 18 years before

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Brian Ross

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #92 - Dec 10^th, 2023 at 4:21pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 3:39pm:

The outcomes proved what I was feeling at the time when conscription started. That thousands of young blokes will fight in Vietnam for a nation that didn't give a stuff about it, and which had to refer to a map of the World to find Vietnam on it. My parents sent me not one letter in the two years I was a nasho. My dad sold my vintage car to a scrap metal dealer. My Mum tossed out all my trade books. Other guys received Dear John letters. My girl friend went out with other blokes, my sister told me. Guys were jailed for resisting the birthday lottery draft. What I felt in the beginning, came to fruition

Australia only abstained from it's collective wanking about a communist threat when it saw children burned from napalm, village huts in flames, agent orange defoliation, body bags, etc

Another thing that played on conscripts' minds was fighting alongside a nation that had just murdered it's President, and killed his senator brother, then killed a prominent civil rights leader, as well as having major organized crime syndicates. Somehow Australia forgave all this, and expected conscripts to forgive it all too, to the point we had to give our lives for it, while the rest of Australia carried on wanking, scared of a non-existent communism

I had misgivings right from the start about us getting involved in that so called "Policing Action". I wasn't at all surprised we and the Yanks lost. Our military was still using WW2 doctrine, problem was, it wasn't WW2, that finished 18 years before

You were unusual in that you were a young Australian who was aware of what was happening half a world away, Bias. You also blamed a whole nation for the crimes of a tiny minority or a single person. I wonder why you hated America so much?

As for Australia still using WW2 Doctrine, well it worked in WW2 so why not? We were fighting against a dispersed enemy, the NLF and PAVN, not the Japanese but it was happening in a similar environment. We were successful against the Japanese and we were successful against the NLF and PAVN, so much so that they were driven back underground, quite often literally. I trained to fight the NLF/PAVN, I often had to be part of mock-attacks against Vietnamese "villages" on Australian ranges, I had to conduct clearing operations against Vietnamese NLF/PAVN concentrations and defended locales, I had to conduct slow and long patrols. It was bloody tiring but it worked. When we left South Vietnam we controlled Phuoc Tuy province, not the NLF/PAVN.

Yes, we were there for the wrong reasons but when we were there, we were effective. We protected the South Vietnamese population from NLF/PAVN depredations. We did not burn those kids, we didn't burn those villages, we didn't kill their president. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Dec 11^th, 2023 at 3:42pm by Brian Ross »

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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AusGeoff

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #93 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 4:28am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 6:41am:

AusGeoff wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 4:17am:

Which meant—due to recruit and corps training, and
specialist job training times, no National Serviceman in
Vietnam was "only 19"—all were at least 20, and some
were 25.

I found at least one soldier - killed in the Battle of Long Tan - Private Francis B Topp - he was only 19...

I was referring specifically to national servicemen.

Private Francis Topp was a regular, not a nasho, as
indicated by his service number of 1200265, with the
"1" indicating a QLD enlistment. All nashos had a second
digit of either 7 or 8 to distinguish them from the regs.

And a reg could join as an Army apprentice at age 17,
which probably explains why he was only 19 when KIA.

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AusGeoff

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #94 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 4:38am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 12:44pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 4:17am:

And no National Service man was "forced" into a posting
to Vietnam. The ADF much preferred nashos who had
a desire to go rather than those who didn't want to
be there from day one.

I have known a few who maintained they did not volunteer for service in South Vietnam but were volunteered. Apparently an officer would volunteer a subunit for service there without the members knowing about it. As I have indicated, there were provisions for Nashos to be ordered to serve.

Not so on both counts.

No CO would—or in fact could—volunteer(!) any soldiers in his
immediate command (not a "subunit", rather a detachment).
Deployments were decided at much higher levels than at unit
CO levels.

And no soldier in an active unit would've been deployed overseas
without their advanced, prior knowledge. That's just nonsense.

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Frank

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #95 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 8:08am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 4:21pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 3:39pm:

The outcomes proved what I was feeling at the time when conscription started. That thousands of young blokes will fight in Vietnam for a nation that didn't give a stuff about it, and which had to refer to a map of the World to find Vietnam on it. My parents sent me not one letter in the two years I was a nasho. My dad sold my vintage car to a scrap metal dealer. My Mum tossed out all my trade books. Other guys received Dear John letters. My girl friend went out with other blokes, my sister told me. Guys were jailed for resisting the birthday lottery draft. What I felt in the beginning, came to fruition

Australia only abstained from it's collective wanking about a communist threat when it saw children burned from napalm, village huts in flames, agent orange defoliation, body bags, etc

Another thing that played on conscripts' minds was fighting alongside a nation that had just murdered it's President, and killed his senator brother, then killed a prominent civil rights leader, as well as having major organized crime syndicates. Somehow Australia forgave all this, and expected conscripts to forgive it all too, to the point we had to give our lives for it, while the rest of Australia carried on wanking, scared of a non-existent communism

I had misgivings right from the start about us getting involved in that so called "Policing Action". I wasn't at all surprised we and the Yanks lost. Our military was still using WW2 doctrine, problem was, it wasn't WW2, that finished 18 years before

You were unusual in that you were a young Australian who was aware of what was happening half a world away, Bias. You also blamed a whole nation for the crimes of a tiny minority or a single person. I wonder why you hated America so much?

As for Australia still using WW2 Doctrine, well it worked in WW2 so why not? We were fighting against a dispersed enemy, the NLF and PAVN, not the Japanese but it was happening in a similar environment. We were successful against the Japanese and we were successful against the NLF and PAVN, so much so that they were driven back underground, quite often literally. I trained to fight the NLF/PAVN, I often had to be part of mock-attacks against Vietnamese "villages" on Australian ranges, I had to conduct clearing operations against Vietnamese NLF/PAVN concentrations and defended locales, I had to conduct slow and long patrols. It was bloody tiring but it worked. When we left South Vietnam we controlled Phuoc Tuy province, not the NLF/PAVN.

Yes, we were there for the wrong reasons but when we were there, we were effective. We protected the South Vietnamese population from NLF/PAVN depredations. We did burn those kids, we didn't burn those villages, we didn't kill their president. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

You are lying, of course, silly, vain, preening cockwomble.
If you are 62 you would have been 14 in 1975 when the Vietnam War ended.

Brian Ross
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Age:62

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #96 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 8:13am

AusGeoff wrote on Dec 11^th, 2023 at 4:28am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 6:41am:

AusGeoff wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 4:17am:

Which meant—due to recruit and corps training, and
specialist job training times, no National Serviceman in
Vietnam was "only 19"—all were at least 20, and some
were 25.

I found at least one soldier - killed in the Battle of Long Tan - Private Francis B Topp - he was only 19...

I was referring specifically to national servicemen.

Private Francis Topp was a regular, not a nasho, as
indicated by his service number of 1200265, with the
"1" indicating a QLD enlistment. All nashos had a second
digit of either 7 or 8 to distinguish them from the regs.

And a reg could join as an Army apprentice at age 17,
which probably explains why he was only 19 when KIA.

Fair enough.

In the context of the song's sentiment, though, some Australians were serving in Vietnam at 19.

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mothra

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #97 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 8:40am

AusGeoff wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 4:34am:

mothra wrote on Dec 8^th, 2023 at 7:25am:

...I can only imagine how much you hated what The Herd did with it. But then again, you probably don't know about it.

This would be, without any doubt, the absolutely worst
cover of John Schumann's poignant, eloquent and
stirring song I've ever had the displeasure of hearing.

It's disrespectful to both returned diggers and KIAs, and the
silly hip-hop delivery totally loses any of the lyrics' intended
thought-provoking, emotional impact. It's nothing but cynical,
heartless pap, intended solely to line the pockets of the
producer and performers (such as they are).

Which explains too why their version never charted in Australia.

Angry

Never charted? I reached no. 18 on Triple J's Hottest 100! And John Schuman was not only a collaborator, he performed it live with them all over the place ... loving his band's song reaching a new generation.

And this is the essential point you miss in your curmudgeonly resentment of anything deviating from the original.

All these new versions do is keep the song alive.

You really think that those hearing newer versions don't hit Youtube up for the original? And they can make their own decisions from there which version they like the most.

It reinvigorates the song. It keeps it alive.

Why anyone would want to sacrifice that so they could feebly blow on the embers of memory to keep it "pure" is utterly beyond me.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Bias_2012

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #98 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 1:06pm

mothra wrote on Dec 11^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

All these new versions do is keep the song alive.

You really think that those hearing newer versions don't hit Youtube up for the original? And they can make their own decisions from there which version they like the most.

It reinvigorates the song. It keeps it alive.

Why anyone would want to sacrifice that so they could feebly blow on the embers of memory to keep it "pure" is utterly beyond me.

I can't see much difference between the old and the new versions

But there's little point in keeping the song alive if it doesn't keep the message alive, and that is; don't join the military if you're nineteen, wait until you're at least 25

That's the hidden message in the song that we're all missing, or can't completely figuring out

Nineteen was too young ... that's what the song is conveying, "I was only nineteen" ....... so, why did "he" join, at such a young age?

At the end of the day, the song is telling us not to allow nineteen year olds to be sent to battle zones

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Jasin

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #99 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 1:33pm

19 is a 'teenager' just as 13 years is as well.
Being a 'teenager' is still in the bracket of 'Child', as 13 year olds are and below.

The fact that they allow 'legal sex' at 16 shows it makes premature ejaculations out of boys and 'child sex' for the girls.

Why the 'rush'?

Why is anything under 20, being a Child' - legal in the eyes of many for most things that should be?

Children from 1 to 19 are being 'forced and pushed' to vacate their youth prematurely towards being considered 'adults' at 16, 18, 19 etc for various reasons.

It's that pressure to become an adult 'before' they really are 'mature' enough - that causes all the problems for kids.
Let them enjoy 'Youth' for as long as they can, they only get it once in their life.

The thoughts of youth, a long long thoughts.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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Gordon

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #100 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 2:24pm

Jasin wrote on Dec 11^th, 2023 at 1:33pm:

19 is a 'teenager' just as 13 years is as well.
Being a 'teenager' is still in the bracket of 'Child', as 13 year olds are and below.

The fact that they allow 'legal sex' at 16 shows it makes premature ejaculations out of boys and 'child sex' for the girls.

Why the 'rush'?

Why is anything under 20, being a Child' - legal in the eyes of many for most things that should be?

Children from 1 to 19 are being 'forced and pushed' to vacate their youth prematurely towards being considered 'adults' at 16, 18, 19 etc for various reasons.

It's that pressure to become an adult 'before' they really are 'mature' enough - that causes all the problems for kids.
Let them enjoy 'Youth' for as long as they can, they only get it once in their life.

The thoughts of youth, a long long thoughts.

Karnal?

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IBI

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 118982 Melbourne Gender:	Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release Reply #101 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 2:45pm "I Was Only Nineteen" It's a depressing song - after you hear it once you never want to hear it again - life is too short.
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Brian Ross

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #102 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 3:44pm

AusGeoff wrote on Dec 11^th, 2023 at 4:38am:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 12:44pm:

AusGeoff wrote on Dec 9^th, 2023 at 4:17am:

And no National Service man was "forced" into a posting
to Vietnam. The ADF much preferred nashos who had
a desire to go rather than those who didn't want to
be there from day one.

I have known a few who maintained they did not volunteer for service in South Vietnam but were volunteered. Apparently an officer would volunteer a subunit for service there without the members knowing about it. As I have indicated, there were provisions for Nashos to be ordered to serve.

Not so on both counts.

No CO would—or in fact could—volunteer(!) any soldiers in his
immediate command (not a "subunit", rather a detachment).
Deployments were decided at much higher levels than at unit
CO levels.

And no soldier in an active unit would've been deployed overseas
without their advanced, prior knowledge. That's just nonsense.

You shouldn't degrade yourself so much, Geoff. I have discussed this issue with veterans. Some of them agreed they were volunteered. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #103 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 3:47pm

Frank wrote on Dec 11^th, 2023 at 8:08am:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 4:21pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 3:39pm:

The outcomes proved what I was feeling at the time when conscription started. That thousands of young blokes will fight in Vietnam for a nation that didn't give a stuff about it, and which had to refer to a map of the World to find Vietnam on it. My parents sent me not one letter in the two years I was a nasho. My dad sold my vintage car to a scrap metal dealer. My Mum tossed out all my trade books. Other guys received Dear John letters. My girl friend went out with other blokes, my sister told me. Guys were jailed for resisting the birthday lottery draft. What I felt in the beginning, came to fruition

Australia only abstained from it's collective wanking about a communist threat when it saw children burned from napalm, village huts in flames, agent orange defoliation, body bags, etc

Another thing that played on conscripts' minds was fighting alongside a nation that had just murdered it's President, and killed his senator brother, then killed a prominent civil rights leader, as well as having major organized crime syndicates. Somehow Australia forgave all this, and expected conscripts to forgive it all too, to the point we had to give our lives for it, while the rest of Australia carried on wanking, scared of a non-existent communism

I had misgivings right from the start about us getting involved in that so called "Policing Action". I wasn't at all surprised we and the Yanks lost. Our military was still using WW2 doctrine, problem was, it wasn't WW2, that finished 18 years before

You were unusual in that you were a young Australian who was aware of what was happening half a world away, Bias. You also blamed a whole nation for the crimes of a tiny minority or a single person. I wonder why you hated America so much?

As for Australia still using WW2 Doctrine, well it worked in WW2 so why not? We were fighting against a dispersed enemy, the NLF and PAVN, not the Japanese but it was happening in a similar environment. We were successful against the Japanese and we were successful against the NLF and PAVN, so much so that they were driven back underground, quite often literally. I trained to fight the NLF/PAVN, I often had to be part of mock-attacks against Vietnamese "villages" on Australian ranges, I had to conduct clearing operations against Vietnamese NLF/PAVN concentrations and defended locales, I had to conduct slow and long patrols. It was bloody tiring but it worked. When we left South Vietnam we controlled Phuoc Tuy province, not the NLF/PAVN.

Yes, we were there for the wrong reasons but when we were there, we were effective. We protected the South Vietnamese population from NLF/PAVN depredations. We did burn those kids, we didn't burn those villages, we didn't kill their president. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

You are lying, of course, silly, vain, preening cockwomble.
If you are 62 you would have been 14 in 1975 when the Vietnam War ended.

Brian Ross
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*****

Age:62

I didn't claim I was there, Soren, just that I trained in similar operations. Our training for COIN warfare did not cease in 1975, it continued on while the military sorted itself out and decided on Fortress Australia. A concept which you, of course, complete disagree with, preferring to fight "over there". Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Bobby.

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Re: I Was Only Nineteen - New Release
Reply #104 - Dec 11^th, 2023 at 4:09pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 11^th, 2023 at 3:44pm:

You shouldn't degrade yourself so much, Geoff. I have discussed this issue with veterans. Some of them agreed they were volunteered. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

True -

https://anzacportal.dva.gov.au/wars-and-missions/vietnam-war-1962-1975/events/co...

In Australia, 15,300 men were conscripted into the Australian Army during the Vietnam conflict.
More than 200 died and at least 1,200 were wounded on active duty.
Most 20-year-old Australian men had to register for national service between 1965 and 1972.

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