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issuevoter

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Pumped Hydro
Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 7:52am

I am always interested in constructive criticsm of ideas. Like the dangers of fire in batteries. They are dangerous. What I don't understand is the hostility that is often passed off as criticsm of renwable energy projects. Such poorly concealed anger implies fear as anger usually does.

This is an interesting examination of the potential of Pumped Hydro:

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 51474 Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #1 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 8:30am Yes—the sea for one provides an unfailing source of water for pumped storage.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15426 Armidale Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #2 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 8:32am It works OK. Heated salt does too. Lake Eyre has 400 million tons of salt, sunshine and welders building subs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage
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lee

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Re: Pumped Hydro
Reply #3 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 1:02pm

The problem with pumped hydro is you need two dams (at least). Therefore you have to buy land that is suitable for two dams, one above the other in height, It is the fall that provides the potential. Unless the government of the day claims eminent domain.

As for salt solar they have tried it. But salt is very corrosive. The Ivanpah solar salt has never lived up to its potential.

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freediver

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Re: Pumped Hydro
Reply #4 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 3:50pm

lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 1:02pm:

The problem with pumped hydro is you need two dams (at least). Therefore you have to buy land that is suitable for two dams, one above the other in height, It is the fall that provides the potential. Unless the government of the day claims eminent domain.

As for salt solar they have tried it. But salt is very corrosive. The Ivanpah solar salt has never lived up to its potential.

Pumped hydro is usually somewhere where there is already one dam, and the second one is up in the hills above it. So it is often already national park or some kind of crown land, or dirt cheap. They don't put these things on the flat grazing land or downtown. The second dam does not need any kind of catchment at all, so it opens up all sorts of possible sites that would not be suitable for a water storage dam.

Also, if an existing hydro facility with a single dam get's it's use changed so it is used intermittently, it achieves the same thing (actually, something much better - intermittent, on demand, large scale power source, rather than just a battery). A lot of them don't have enough enough storage for full time operation anyway.

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« Last Edit: Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 3:57pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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lee

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Re: Pumped Hydro
Reply #5 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 4:06pm

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 3:50pm:

So it is often already national park or some kind of crown land, or dirt cheap.

So flood the crown land? Roll Eyes

It is actually like a battery without the chemicals. A loss making alternative similar to a battery. In a prolonged renewables deficit there may not be enough electricity to pump uphill.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15426 Armidale Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #6 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 5:19pm lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 1:02pm: As for salt solar they have tried it. But salt is very corrosive. The Ivanpah solar salt has never lived up to its potential. 'By 2017, due to improvements, the [Ivanpah] plant was meeting the contract output requirements'. This continues from 2022.
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lee

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Re: Pumped Hydro
Reply #7 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 5:49pm

chimera wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 5:19pm:

'By 2017, due to improvements, the [Ivanpah] plant was meeting the contract output requirements'.

"In its seventh year (2020), the annual production was 91.1% of its advertised value. "
MW
940,000 MWh

Sun total 815,817MWh for 2020 so for 2020 86%, so 5% was gas because they need to heat the salt in the morning.

But if we have a look at reality - A 392MW generator. If we divide the MWh by the hours in a year we see how it really went. 24*365 = 8760. So 815817/8760 = 93MW out of 392MW.

It might have met contract but it certainly wasn't close to capacity. Roll Eyes

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15426 Armidale Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #8 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 5:57pm https://moonshinestills.com/products/15-gallon-electric-moonshine-liquor-still-c... Feel the power of organic liquor at 23% MW alcohol, full moon or new moon. It's a gas, the full bottle and worth its salt.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20970 Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #9 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 6:17pm So you lost again. Ho-hum.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15426 Armidale Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #10 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 6:38pm lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 5:49pm: they need to heat the salt in the morning. Now why was that, eh?
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freediver

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Re: Pumped Hydro
Reply #11 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 6:42pm

lee wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 4:06pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 3:50pm:

So it is often already national park or some kind of crown land, or dirt cheap.

So flood the crown land? Roll Eyes

Yeah. You got a problem with that too?

What are you going to do next, complain that the "problem" with solar panels is that they require solar panels?

Quote:

It is actually like a battery without the chemicals. A loss making alternative similar to a battery. In a prolonged renewables deficit there may not be enough electricity to pump uphill.

Pumped hydro has been a mainstream, financially viable option for decades.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15426 Armidale Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #12 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 6:45pm Hi freediver, Laxettes provides effective treatment of constipation in 8hrs and is great for those wanting overnight relief action & to restore regularity.
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20970 Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #13 - Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 7:00pm freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2023 at 6:42pm: What are you going to do next, complain that the "problem" with solar panels is that they require solar panels? Solar panels require cleaning. Let us know when the Greenies support flooding crown land.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15426 Armidale Gender:	Re: Pumped Hydro Reply #14 - Aug 3^rd, 2023 at 8:25am Yes the bulldust on my solar panels affects the looney electricity at night.
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