Australian Politics Forum - I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.

Lisa Jones

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #210 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 8:51am

AusGeoff wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 10:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

...It is good that we provide recognition to those people we totally dispossessed, violently.

"We" don't have any need to provide recognition of what our ignorant British ancestors did 250 years ago in order to purportedly dispossess a people who collectively never "owned" the land they stood upon.

Aboriginals no more "own" Ayers Rock, The Grampians, or Mount Warning any more—or at all—than you or I do. These geographical features existed multi-millennia before the Southeast Asian diaspora moved into the Australian continent.

Ayers Rock is 550,000,000 years old. How long have Aboriginals been here? 60,000 years—a minute fraction of that time equal to only 0.01% in fact.

FMD you’re on fire! Thats exactly right! It’s about time we got real about the current facts/figures!

Oh and the British aren’t my ancestors! Nor are they the ancestors of most Australians today!

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Boris Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4457 Gender:	Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting. Reply #211 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 8:52am
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Black Orchid

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #212 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 9:35am

AusGeoff wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 10:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

...It is good that we provide recognition to those people we totally dispossessed, violently.

"We" don't have any need to provide recognition of
what our ignorant British ancestors did 250 years ago
in order to purportedly dispossess a people who
collectively never "owned" the land they stood upon.

Aboriginals no more "own" Ayers Rock, The Grampians,
or Mount Warning any more—or at all—than you or I do.
These geographical features existed multi-millennia
before the Southeast Asian diaspora moved into the
Australian continent.

Ayers Rock is 550,000,000 years old. How long have
Aboriginals been here? 60,000 years—a minute fraction
of that time equal to only 0.01% in fact.

Well said.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #213 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 9:53am

Black Orchid wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 9:35am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 10:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

...It is good that we provide recognition to those people we totally dispossessed, violently.

"We" don't have any need to provide recognition of
what our ignorant British ancestors did 250 years ago
in order to purportedly dispossess a people who
collectively never "owned" the land they stood upon.

Aboriginals no more "own" Ayers Rock, The Grampians,
or Mount Warning any more—or at all—than you or I do.
These geographical features existed multi-millennia
before the Southeast Asian diaspora moved into the
Australian continent.

Ayers Rock is 550,000,000 years old. How long have
Aboriginals been here? 60,000 years—a minute fraction
of that time equal to only 0.01% in fact.

Well said.

Geoff is pretty bloody good hey!

I’m only starting to realise just HOW good 👌

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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issuevoter

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #214 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 10:13am

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 9:53am:

Black Orchid wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 9:35am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 10:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

...It is good that we provide recognition to those people we totally dispossessed, violently.

"We" don't have any need to provide recognition of
what our ignorant British ancestors did 250 years ago
in order to purportedly dispossess a people who
collectively never "owned" the land they stood upon.

Aboriginals no more "own" Ayers Rock, The Grampians,
or Mount Warning any more—or at all—than you or I do.
These geographical features existed multi-millennia
before the Southeast Asian diaspora moved into the
Australian continent.

Ayers Rock is 550,000,000 years old. How long have
Aboriginals been here? 60,000 years—a minute fraction
of that time equal to only 0.01% in fact.

Well said.

Geoff is pretty bloody good hey!

I’m only starting to realise just HOW good 👌

Ownership of property does not predate written records. Prior to ownership, possession and defense were imperatives. As societies became more civilised, some order had to be established, thus the idea of legal ownership came into being. Certainly the Aborigines did not have such an idea, but that should not disinherit them in a civilised society. The question becomes whether Commonwealth law stands. If it were not for English written records, the indigenous would have no idea of Australia the continent or country, except for some primitive legends much of which are being created as we speak, by elders who were born in the 1960s, long after tribalism disappeared.

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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.

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Frank

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #215 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 10:24am

mothra wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 8:08am:

Has Fleadriver said what is "dangerous" about it yet?

Anyone?

I can't see that he has. I may have missed it though.

I'd be really interested if anyone could point me in the right direction.

Thomas Mayo is one of the architects of the Voice referendum proposal and signatory of the Uluru Statement. And his views are not far away from the fears being expressed by some of Australia’s top constitutional experts.

The Mayo interpretations revolve around three powers in the proposed constitutional change – the right to make representations to the public service as well as the parliament on an almost unlimited range of issues, plus the presumed right to have those representations considered. And thirdly, the relegation of the powers of parliament in these matters.

The filmed extracts set out what Mayo is trying to achieve;

– “We are sick of governments not listening to our voice. We’re going to use the rule book of the nation to force them. There is nothing more powerful than building a First Nations’ voice, a black institution – a black political force to be reckoned with”.

– We will “keep going until we change the system, until we tear down the institutions that harm our people”.

– “We also to pay respects to the elders of the Communist Party, who I think, without a doubt, have played a very important role in our activism”.

– “You know this is the first step. It’s a vital step. Pay the rent, for example. You know, how do we do that in a way that is transparent and that it actually sees reparations and compensation to aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people”.

– “The power in the voice is that it creates the ability for First Nations to go forth with coherent positions on what legislation needs to be created; what legislation needs to be amended and punish politicians that ignore our advice”.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/voice-debate-takes-a-nasty-twist-as-support-slips/news-story/fe4bb41efde3cf08b1b230fb8e482b10

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Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #216 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 10:37am

UP FOR AUSSIE - read, then STFU AND apologise for being such a tosspot

(Thomas Mayo is one of the architects of the Voice referendum proposal and signatory of the Uluru Statement).

We are sick of governments not listening to our voice. We’re going to use the rule book of the nation to force them. There is nothing more powerful than building a First Nations’ voice, a black institution – a black political force to be reckoned with”.

– We will “keep going until we change the system, until we tear down the institutions that harm our people”.

– “We also pay our respects to the elders of the Communist Party, who I think, without a doubt, have played a very important role in our activism”.

– “You know this is the first step. It’s a vital step. Pay the rent, for example. You know, how do we do that in a way that is transparent and that it actually sees reparations and compensation to aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people”.

– “The power in the voice is that it creates the ability for First Nations to go forth with coherent positions on what legislation needs to be created; what legislation needs to be amended and punish politicians that ignore our advice”.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/voice-debate-takes-a-nasty-twist-as-support-slips/news-story/fe4bb41efde3cf08b1b230fb8e482b10

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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UnSubRocky

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #217 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 10:44am

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 10:20pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 10:08pm:

I could not call Aussie "Uncle". I am not aboriginal.

When you’re a full blooded European...esp Mediterranean (like I am)...ANYONE who is your parent’s vintage is an Uncle or an Aunty.

The "Aunty" thing, I would not use for people unless they invite me to call them that. "Aunty" and "Uncle" is only reserved for indigenous people who have a female or male member of their community who is an elder and known to the indigenous family.

I recall when I was a delivery driver many years ago, I delivered to an indigenous family. A girl, probably not much older than 12, took the order. She was with a little girl who was curious about the delivery. The older girl told me that she was this girl's "aunty". I asked her how that could be, until I realised that the way some families are, they might have an older sibling who was a parent in their teenage years. I felt pretty stupid that day.

It occurred to me later that maybe she meant "aunty" in terms of being the elder member of the family looking after younger indigenous members. But, it seems likely
that the girl was an actual aunty to the little girl. The little girl probably is now an "aunty" to her aunty's child, now -- whichever the interpretation.

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At this stage...

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UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Crocodile Hunter: Origins Posts: 25864 Rockhampton Gender:	Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting. Reply #218 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 10:45am Captain Caveman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 5:12am: I am, you are, we are Australian, except for the aborigines. They are, their own, hunter... gath'erer... I am going to use that. I always thought that there could be more to that stupid song than the hippie bullshit lyrics.
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Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59860 Gender:	Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting. Reply #219 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 11:10am Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 7:48pm: There are those, no matter what is said to them, will be cowards and nothing will change that. Cower away. I won't. Brave, fearless Arssie does as he is told by the government and Big Abo! Radical!
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Frank

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #220 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 11:11am

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 7:48pm:

There are those, no matter what is said to them, will be cowards and nothing will change that. Cower away.

I won't.

Brave, fearless Arssie does as he is told by the government and Big Abo! Radical!

Brandis makes good points that are systematically ignored by the Yes side:

FIRST - EVERY constitutional referendum, the burden of persuasion is on those wanting change.
But Albo, Arssie, Mothra, Bbwian et al have, in fact, reversed the onus – by insisting that the Voice is a self-evidently good thing, and by demanding that opponents or sceptics justify themselves. Scathing attacks on the No case are not just the opposite of the “respectful” debate Albo has said he wants; they are an insult to everyone who is not persuaded that the Voice is a good idea.
Burney is an unconvincing advocate at the best of times. As for Noel Pearson – is it any wonder that No campaigners are over the moon every time he opens his mouth? An angry, self-righteous proponent is never as persuasive as a courteous, methodical critic.

Second, quit the moral bullying. The wisdom of constitutional change is something about which reasonable people can differ. It is not about whose motives are purer or who is a better person. Burney captured the morally hectoring tone of the Yes campaign last week when she channelled not Clinton this time, but Michelle Obama: “When they go low, we go high.” People who are sceptical about the Voice are not taking the low road; they are merely exhibiting the same constitutional conservatism which has seen 36 of 44 referenda fail.

Third, at least pretend the debate is a level playing field. If this is to be an authentic national debate, both sides must be heard. Yet so far, virtually all we have had from the political establishment and its surrogates in business, sporting organisations, public broadcasters, churches and NGOs has been advocacy for the Yes case. Does anyone who watches the ABC have any doubt that it is barracking for Yes (notwithstanding its charter obligation of political neutrality)? I suspect one of the very reasons support for Yes is sinking is because Australians don’t like having the establishment force its view down our throats. We are famously contrary whenever we are told by politicians and community “leaders” what we ought to think.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/yes-campaign-s-in-deplorable-territory-these-seven-ideas-can-save-it-20230621-p5di91.html

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« Last Edit: Jun 26^th, 2023 at 11:32am by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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John Smith

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #221 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 11:36am

issuevoter wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 10:13am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 9:53am:

Black Orchid wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 9:35am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 10:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 8:40am:

...It is good that we provide recognition to those people we totally dispossessed, violently.

"We" don't have any need to provide recognition of
what our ignorant British ancestors did 250 years ago
in order to purportedly dispossess a people who
collectively never "owned" the land they stood upon.

Aboriginals no more "own" Ayers Rock, The Grampians,
or Mount Warning any more—or at all—than you or I do.
These geographical features existed multi-millennia
before the Southeast Asian diaspora moved into the
Australian continent.

Ayers Rock is 550,000,000 years old. How long have
Aboriginals been here? 60,000 years—a minute fraction
of that time equal to only 0.01% in fact.

Well said.

Geoff is pretty bloody good hey!

I’m only starting to realise just HOW good 👌

Ownership of property does not predate written records. Prior to ownership, possession and defense were imperatives. As societies became more civilised, some order had to be established, thus the idea of legal ownership came into being. Certainly the Aborigines did not have such an idea, but that should not disinherit them in a civilised society. The question becomes whether Commonwealth law stands. If it were not for English written records, the indigenous would have no idea of Australia the continent or country, except for some primitive legends much of which are being created as we speak, by elders who were born in the 1960s, long after tribalism disappeared.

It doesn't matter if Aborigines had 'ownership'. Each tribe had their territory, written down as ownership or not. This is our system that we imposed on them. Suddenly imposing a new system on them does not automatically negate their system

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Aussie

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #222 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 1:14pm

Frank wrote on Jun 26^th, 2023 at 11:11am:

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 7:48pm:

There are those, no matter what is said to them, will be cowards and nothing will change that. Cower away.

I won't.

Brave, fearless Arssie does as he is told by the government and Big Abo! Radical!

Brandis makes good points that are systematically ignored by the Yes side:

FIRST - EVERY constitutional referendum, the burden of persuasion is on those wanting change.
But Albo, Arssie, Mothra, Bbwian et al have, in fact, reversed the onus – by insisting that the Voice is a self-evidently good thing, and by demanding that opponents or sceptics justify themselves. Scathing attacks on the No case are not just the opposite of the “respectful” debate Albo has said he wants; they are an insult to everyone who is not persuaded that the Voice is a good idea.
Burney is an unconvincing advocate at the best of times. As for Noel Pearson – is it any wonder that No campaigners are over the moon every time he opens his mouth? An angry, self-righteous proponent is never as persuasive as a courteous, methodical critic.

Second, quit the moral bullying. The wisdom of constitutional change is something about which reasonable people can differ. It is not about whose motives are purer or who is a better person. Burney captured the morally hectoring tone of the Yes campaign last week when she channelled not Clinton this time, but Michelle Obama: “When they go low, we go high.” People who are sceptical about the Voice are not taking the low road; they are merely exhibiting the same constitutional conservatism which has seen 36 of 44 referenda fail.

Third, at least pretend the debate is a level playing field. If this is to be an authentic national debate, both sides must be heard. Yet so far, virtually all we have had from the political establishment and its surrogates in business, sporting organisations, public broadcasters, churches and NGOs has been advocacy for the Yes case. Does anyone who watches the ABC have any doubt that it is barracking for Yes (notwithstanding its charter obligation of political neutrality)? I suspect one of the very reasons support for Yes is sinking is because Australians don’t like having the establishment force its view down our throats. We are famously contrary whenever we are told by politicians and community “leaders” what we ought to think.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/yes-campaign-s-in-deplorable-territory-these-seven-ideas-can-save-it-20230621-p5di91.html

There is no burden either way. People will listen to whatever is argued (or not) and decide.

The yes case is what I have been posting. The no case is hysterical baseless fearmongering mixed with absolute dishonest garbage and rubbish.

I maintain that those who vote no are being selfsh and do not want to see the black fella get anything not even a token recognition for the fact that they were violently dispossessed by a democracy they had no say in, and were denied a say in for SIX DECADES after Australia became a Nation in 1901. Further, it was not until 1984 that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were finally treated like other voters and required to enrol and vote in elections.

By then, they were well and truly fuqqed over by whitey.

I can imagine that those who have posted their 'no vote' here would have been advocating that the black fella NOT be given that right to vote back in the early 60s, yes, Sore End.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting. Reply #223 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 1:25pm Aussie how long have you known (and not told us) that you’re an Aboriginal?
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Gnads

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Re: I'm Pretty Sure I Know How I'LL Be Voting.
Reply #224 - Jun 26^th, 2023 at 2:26pm

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 8:07pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 8:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Jun 25^th, 2023 at 7:48pm:

There are those, no matter what is said to them, will be cowards and nothing will change that. Cower away.

I won't.

Pfft. You literally would not take "no" for an answer.

I'd accept 'no' if it was for a reason other than whitey does not want to give even a mere token, a nod, a gesture or a handshake to the boong. It's as simple as that.

Naked selfish bigotry and more suppression for the sake of naked selfish bigotry and suppression.

No manners. Nothing.

Altering the Constitution based on race is not a "mere token" that should be given.

This whole Voice agenda is being driven by Urban Aboriginal activists - not those who are in remote communities & marginalised.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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