Australian Politics Forum - expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.

JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #60 - May 21^st, 2023 at 12:09pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 11:02am:

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 10:22am:

why so many of these ukrainian men are willing to throw away their lives for something this retarded never ceases to amaze me, but it gives you some indication of how powerful memeplexes like ultranationalism can be in getting people to do stupid things

"nEvEr gIvE iNtO bUlLiEs" ~ man who isnt going to die sitting behind his desk in australia

If you were the Australian PM. would you surrender Australian territory to an aggressor without a fight?

Would you not ask allies to assist in resisting an invader?

i would have negotiated a settlement or did everything i could to ensure no war started in the first place like any non insane person would lol

i'm sure as f k not throwing my life away for boomer house prices in the event of an invasion if australia that's for sure

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Bobby.

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #61 - May 21^st, 2023 at 12:11pm

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:02pm:

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 11:56am:

Ukraine is a fairly liberal democracy. Russia is returning to authoritarianism. If Ukraine loses, it would be a loss for democracy and freedom. Those are worth fighting for.

yet - everyone does business with countries like Saudi Arabia - a dictatorship -
which cuts peoples heads off with swords for blasphemy -
the Yanks even sell them weapons and in 1991 they
went to war to protect Saudi Arabia from Saddam.

What is your point Bobby?

That you point of -
democracy and freedom. Those are worth fighting for.

is not true in most cases.
We don't fight for that at all except in some cases of invasion such as Ukraine now.
The great democracies of the world also illegally invade other countries -
look at the Iraq invasion in 2003.

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Jasin

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #62 - May 21^st, 2023 at 12:13pm

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 11:02am:

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 10:22am:

why so many of these ukrainian men are willing to throw away their lives for something this retarded never ceases to amaze me, but it gives you some indication of how powerful memeplexes like ultranationalism can be in getting people to do stupid things

"nEvEr gIvE iNtO bUlLiEs" ~ man who isnt going to die sitting behind his desk in australia

If you were the Australian PM. would you surrender Australian territory to an aggressor without a fight?

Would you not ask allies to assist in resisting an invader?

i would have negotiated a settlement or did everything i could to ensure no war started in the first place like any non insane person would lol

i'm sure as f k not throwing my life away for boomer house prices in the event of an invasion if australia that's for sure

That's what Trump would have done JC. Try to prevent a War that would kill many civilians, at any cost.

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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freediver

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #63 - May 21^st, 2023 at 12:14pm

Quote:

We don't fight for that at all except in some cases of invasion such as Ukraine now.

We aren't on a crusade, but we do defend our freedoms and our democracy when they come under attack. It doesn't happen that often, given that liberal democracies also tend to be far more wealthy and powerful.

Why do you think western countries and the media are all siding with Ukraine?

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JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #64 - May 21^st, 2023 at 12:19pm

Quote:

Ukraine is a fairly liberal democracy. Russia is returning to authoritarianism. If Ukraine loses, it would be a loss for democracy and freedom. Those are worth fighting for.

ukraine is about as corrupt as russia is, and its certainly a worse country to live in. ukraine is basically russia if it never left the post-soviet 90s nadir. certainly not worth fighting for, and many ukrainians fighting sure as f k aren't fighting for "liberal democracy" or whatever claptrap they're effective blood and soil nationalists who want to produce a ukrainian ethnogenesis predicated upon a specific brand of regional gallician ultranationalism

hard to describe a state where civilians are routinely taped to street posts and chased down like dogs by the SBU for not wanting to die in a ditch in bakhmut as a "liberal democracy", and even if so who gaf anyway that's not worth dying for lol. nothing is, death is the end, nothing after it

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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5486 Gender:	Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly. Reply #65 - May 21^st, 2023 at 12:20pm Quote: We aren't on a crusade, but we do defend our freedoms and our democracy when they come under attack. yeah like chile in the 1970s or mossadeq in iran in the 1950s
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Bobby.

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #66 - May 21^st, 2023 at 12:23pm

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:14pm:

Quote:

We don't fight for that at all except in some cases of invasion such as Ukraine now.

We aren't on a crusade, but we do defend our freedoms and our democracy when they come under attack. It doesn't happen that often, given that liberal democracies also tend to be far more wealthy and powerful.

Why do you think western countries and the media are all siding with Ukraine?

It's because of memories about Hitler invading Poland.
Putin has done the same thing in Ukraine.

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freediver

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #67 - May 21^st, 2023 at 1:21pm

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:19pm:

Quote:

Ukraine is a fairly liberal democracy. Russia is returning to authoritarianism. If Ukraine loses, it would be a loss for democracy and freedom. Those are worth fighting for.

ukraine is about as corrupt as russia is, and its certainly a worse country to live in. ukraine is basically russia if it never left the post-soviet 90s nadir. certainly not worth fighting for, and many ukrainians fighting sure as f k aren't fighting for "liberal democracy" or whatever claptrap they're effective blood and soil nationalists who want to produce a ukrainian ethnogenesis predicated upon a specific brand of regional gallician ultranationalism

hard to describe a state where civilians are routinely taped to street posts and chased down like dogs by the SBU for not wanting to die in a ditch in bakhmut as a "liberal democracy", and even if so who gaf anyway that's not worth dying for lol. nothing is, death is the end, nothing after it

If everyone thought like you, we would all be slaves.

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issuevoter

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #68 - May 21^st, 2023 at 1:45pm

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 11:56am:

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 10:22am:

i might have got that mixed up but yes

irrelevant though, given what i've summarised still remains true

ukraine has acted pretty stupidly/recklessly and this was all pretty avoidable

How have they acted recklessly? Your summary is meaningless if you keep getting your details mixed up.

Quote:

whether they can win (and the only way they can 'win' is affecting some sort of political negotiation that is in their favour; their strategy is fairly similar to the confederacy's in the american civil war) their country is destined for s h i t hole status regardless

why so many of these ukrainian men are willing to throw away their lives for something this retarded never ceases to amaze me, but it gives you some indication of how powerful memeplexes like ultranationalism can be in getting people to do stupid things

"nEvEr gIvE iNtO bUlLiEs" ~ man who isnt going to die sitting behind his desk in australia

Ukraine is a fairly liberal democracy. Russia is returning to authoritarianism. If Ukraine loses, it would be a loss for democracy and freedom. Those are worth fighting for.

I would say Russia under Putin HAS returned to authoritarianism, but that word is a little too nice. Russia is a fascist police state that locks up, poisons, or murders, political opposition. It now describes opposition to the invasion Treason with life in prison . . . if they survive. The fact that Ukraine is fairly liberal is exactly why Putin invaded. Poroshenko didn't go to Moscow to retire, he went there to await the invasion.

In the meantime, we have Australians championing a fascist state, mainly out of ignorance, or the anti-Western conspiracy theories hatched because of too much couch time.

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JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #69 - May 21^st, 2023 at 3:42pm

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 1:21pm:

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:19pm:

Quote:

Ukraine is a fairly liberal democracy. Russia is returning to authoritarianism. If Ukraine loses, it would be a loss for democracy and freedom. Those are worth fighting for.

ukraine is about as corrupt as russia is, and its certainly a worse country to live in. ukraine is basically russia if it never left the post-soviet 90s nadir. certainly not worth fighting for, and many ukrainians fighting sure as f k aren't fighting for "liberal democracy" or whatever claptrap they're effective blood and soil nationalists who want to produce a ukrainian ethnogenesis predicated upon a specific brand of regional gallician ultranationalism

hard to describe a state where civilians are routinely taped to street posts and chased down like dogs by the SBU for not wanting to die in a ditch in bakhmut as a "liberal democracy", and even if so who gaf anyway that's not worth dying for lol. nothing is, death is the end, nothing after it

If everyone thought like you, we would all be slaves.

no ukrainian is going to be a slave

you're certainly not going to be signing up to help them

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aquascoot Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 36744 Gender:	Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly. Reply #70 - May 21^st, 2023 at 3:45pm zalensky will fight to the last 16 yo, dragged kicking and screaming to the front . then he will catch a jet to hollywood and party with sean penn and george clooney and be celebrated as Time magazines "man of the year"
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JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #71 - May 21^st, 2023 at 3:49pm

it's totally worth fighting for a political system comprised of a revolving door of two politically indistiguishable parties that ignore what the public wants on all important big ticket items while making their own constituents minorities in their own country

i'd totally sign up to die for something like that

it's funny also that with opposition parties banned, it's hard to make the case that Russia is more autocratic and less democratic than Ukraine rn

the second biggest party in the russian state duma is the communist party of the russian federation, that's a pretty bizarre chararcteristic for a 'fascist state' to have. people just throw around words without even knowing what they mean . meanwhile all communist iconography/political organisations in ukraine have been banned for years, and neo-nazi affiliated groups are loosely or formally integrated into the military and other institutions

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freediver

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #72 - May 21^st, 2023 at 4:02pm

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 3:42pm:

freediver wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 1:21pm:

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:19pm:

Quote:

Ukraine is a fairly liberal democracy. Russia is returning to authoritarianism. If Ukraine loses, it would be a loss for democracy and freedom. Those are worth fighting for.

ukraine is about as corrupt as russia is, and its certainly a worse country to live in. ukraine is basically russia if it never left the post-soviet 90s nadir. certainly not worth fighting for, and many ukrainians fighting sure as f k aren't fighting for "liberal democracy" or whatever claptrap they're effective blood and soil nationalists who want to produce a ukrainian ethnogenesis predicated upon a specific brand of regional gallician ultranationalism

hard to describe a state where civilians are routinely taped to street posts and chased down like dogs by the SBU for not wanting to die in a ditch in bakhmut as a "liberal democracy", and even if so who gaf anyway that's not worth dying for lol. nothing is, death is the end, nothing after it

If everyone thought like you, we would all be slaves.

no ukrainian is going to be a slave

you're certainly not going to be signing up to help them

If everyone fled like you, they soon would be.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5486 Gender:	Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly. Reply #73 - May 21^st, 2023 at 4:11pm i'd want to be part of russia if i was ukraninian tbh it's clearly the better managed country with a better quality of life many in ukraine clearly agree
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #74 - May 21^st, 2023 at 5:30pm

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 12:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 11:02am:

JC Denton wrote on May 21^st, 2023 at 10:22am:

why so many of these ukrainian men are willing to throw away their lives for something this retarded never ceases to amaze me, but it gives you some indication of how powerful memeplexes like ultranationalism can be in getting people to do stupid things

"nEvEr gIvE iNtO bUlLiEs" ~ man who isnt going to die sitting behind his desk in australia

If you were the Australian PM. would you surrender Australian territory to an aggressor without a fight?

Would you not ask allies to assist in resisting an invader?

i would have negotiated a settlement or did everything i could to ensure no war started in the first place like any non insane person would lol

i'm sure as f k not throwing my life away for boomer house prices in the event of an invasion if australia that's for sure

Negotiation didn’t work with Hitler or Stalin.

Given Russians do not consider Ukraine to be a separate country (the Russian pet name for Ukraine is ‘little Russia’), why would it work with Putin?

What would you have offered? Putin intended to take the country and install a puppet regime. He also denied Russia was intending to invade Ukraine (similar to Hitler and Stalin’s denial about Poland’s invasion). What was there to negotiate ?

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