Australian Politics Forum - expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.

issuevoter

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #135 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 8:07pm

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 4:50pm:

issuevoter wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 4:41pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 3:52pm:

[url]https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/138/442/109/orig
inal/aa4e9599dfed4852.jpg[/url]

That's pretty good, Bobby. Only difference, they wanted to kill us. That is if you insist on including me in "we."

But the Yanks have armed a lot of naughty boys. Embarrassed

I cannot argue with that. But I have to return to Lindley-French stating: "Ultimately, this is about the values of liberal democracy and human rights; freedom. Not real-politic and state structures."

Of course, Ukraine is losing, as the title says. They have lost territory and had their cities bombarded. You have to ask what winning means to either side. The Russians keep changing their story. However, Putin and the Muscovite cabal have started something they do not seem able to finish. But the misery and grief they have created for Russians and Ukrainians is only the beginning. It will mean generational hatred that will make the Donbas question look like kindergarten. This will be a long war, and afterwards there will be a lot of men who are pretty good at demolition and murder, and they are going to want revenge.

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Bobby.

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #136 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 8:16pm

issuevoter wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 8:07pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 4:50pm:

issuevoter wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 4:41pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 3:52pm:

[url]https://media.gab.com/system/media_attachments/files/138/442/109/orig
inal/aa4e9599dfed4852.jpg[/url]

That's pretty good, Bobby. Only difference, they wanted to kill us. That is if you insist on including me in "we."

But the Yanks have armed a lot of naughty boys. Embarrassed

I cannot argue with that. But I have to return to Lindley-French stating: "Ultimately, this is about the values of liberal democracy and human rights; freedom. Not real-politic and state structures."

Of course, Ukraine is losing, as the title says. They have lost territory and had their cities bombarded. You have to ask what winning means to either side. The Russians keep changing their story. However, Putin and the Muscovite cabal have started something they do not seem able to finish. But the misery and grief they have created for Russians and Ukrainians is only the beginning. It will mean generational hatred that will make the Donbas question look like kindergarten. This will be a long war, and afterwards there will be a lot of men who are pretty good at demolition and murder, and they are going to want revenge.

yes this history has been seen before.

History is written by the victors.
We hear in every documentary that the British won the battle of Britain.
Did they?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-blitz-around-britain

57 consecutive nights of bombing - over 43,500 civilians were killed.
Many cities in England were raised to the ground -
left as smoking piles of rubble.

Does that sound like winning to you?

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 60280 Here Gender:	Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly. Reply #137 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:34pm Quote: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly. Most of those stories are engineered out of Russia.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #138 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:59pm

aquascoot wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:23pm:

but the fact remains, putin will prevail in the ukraine.

he simply had too many artillery shells and a much bigger population

but NATO has a combined GDP of more than $40 trillion cf Russia's $1.5 trillion, so as long as there is something to bomb in Ukraine, NATO will outlast Russia.

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Bobby.

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #139 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:59pm:

aquascoot wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:23pm:

but the fact remains, putin will prevail in the ukraine.

he simply had too many artillery shells and a much bigger population

but NATO has a combined GDP of more than $40 trillion cf Russia's $1.5 trillion, so as long as there is something to bomb in Ukraine, NATO will outlast Russia.

Let's say that Ukraine gets back its territory -

They get as their prize - 100s of 1000s of bombed out buildings -
whole cities turned into piles of smoking rubble -
100s of 1000s of their people dead -
half their population has left the county as refugees -
their roads, bridges, farms and factories in ruin.
Their territory poisoned with depleted Uranium for millions of years -
their farm land infested with land mines that will take 50 years to clear out -
they will be lucky if the Zaporizhia nuclear power plant doesn't melt down -
that is not a win.

Ukraine has already lost everything.

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JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #140 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:35pm

Quote:

but NATO has a combined GDP of more than $40 trillion cf Russia's $1.5 trillion, so as long as there is something to bomb in Ukraine, NATO will outlast Russia.

this isnt how gdp works dumbkopf

ukraine can only fight so long as it has enough people to do it with, if there isn't enough they will lose

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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5486 Gender:	Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly. Reply #141 - May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:38pm Dnarever wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:34pm: Quote: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly. Most of those stories are engineered out of Russia. yeah the ukrainians aren't lying about anything. nothing at all
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freediver

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #142 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 6:57am

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:59pm:

aquascoot wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:23pm:

but the fact remains, putin will prevail in the ukraine.

he simply had too many artillery shells and a much bigger population

but NATO has a combined GDP of more than $40 trillion cf Russia's $1.5 trillion, so as long as there is something to bomb in Ukraine, NATO will outlast Russia.

Let's say that Ukraine gets back its territory -

They get as their prize - 100s of 1000s of bombed out buildings -
whole cities turned into piles of smoking rubble -
100s of 1000s of their people dead -
half their population has left the county as refugees -
their roads, bridges, farms and factories in ruin.
Their territory poisoned with depleted Uranium for millions of years -
their farm land infested with land mines that will take 50 years to clear out -
they will be lucky if the Zaporizhia nuclear power plant doesn't melt down -
that is not a win.

Ukraine has already lost everything.

Plenty of countries have bounced back from such a defeat, let alone a victory.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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aquascoot

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #143 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 7:08am

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2023 at 6:57am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:59pm:

aquascoot wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:23pm:

but the fact remains, putin will prevail in the ukraine.

he simply had too many artillery shells and a much bigger population

but NATO has a combined GDP of more than $40 trillion cf Russia's $1.5 trillion, so as long as there is something to bomb in Ukraine, NATO will outlast Russia.

Let's say that Ukraine gets back its territory -

They get as their prize - 100s of 1000s of bombed out buildings -
whole cities turned into piles of smoking rubble -
100s of 1000s of their people dead -
half their population has left the county as refugees -
their roads, bridges, farms and factories in ruin.
Their territory poisoned with depleted Uranium for millions of years -
their farm land infested with land mines that will take 50 years to clear out -
they will be lucky if the Zaporizhia nuclear power plant doesn't melt down -
that is not a win.

Ukraine has already lost everything.

Plenty of countries have bounced back from such a defeat, let alone a victory.

The Russian flag is currently flying over bakhmut.

Zelensky had better fuel up the the learjet
Alert Hollywood he's on the way
Maybe someone can bring his yacht up from San Diego

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Bobby.

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #144 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 7:10am

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2023 at 6:57am:

Bobby. wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 11:09pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 10:59pm:

aquascoot wrote on May 22^nd, 2023 at 12:23pm:

but the fact remains, putin will prevail in the ukraine.

he simply had too many artillery shells and a much bigger population

but NATO has a combined GDP of more than $40 trillion cf Russia's $1.5 trillion, so as long as there is something to bomb in Ukraine, NATO will outlast Russia.

Let's say that Ukraine gets back its territory -

They get as their prize - 100s of 1000s of bombed out buildings -
whole cities turned into piles of smoking rubble -
100s of 1000s of their people dead -
half their population has left the county as refugees -
their roads, bridges, farms and factories in ruin.
Their territory poisoned with depleted Uranium for millions of years -
their farm land infested with land mines that will take 50 years to clear out -
they will be lucky if the Zaporizhia nuclear power plant doesn't melt down -
that is not a win.

Ukraine has already lost everything.

Plenty of countries have bounced back from such a defeat, let alone a victory.

It can happen.
I was amazed that Germany rebuilt so well after WW2.
Within 40 years they had the largest economy in Europe.

Britain also rebuilt but they did suffer for at least 30 years after WW2.
They had food rationing.
France had food rationing till 1958.

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JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #145 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 8:02am

Quote:

Plenty of countries have bounced back from such a defeat, let alone a victory.

those countries invariably have had way more manpower and resource potential than the side that winning against them initially

i.e the soviet union in ww2, rome in the second punic war, or the union in the american civil war

in order for them to win an attritional victory (absurd) they have to be killing 5 russians for every 1 ukrainian, and even if they were achieving that they'd roughly only be breaking even

even with the assumption of infinite nato funding ukraine's only hope of victory is a political one; ukrainian generals have said as much

otherwise this is completely delusional

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aquascoot

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #146 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 8:23am

Yes zelensky either goes to the negotiating table 12 months ago with a lot of his infrastructure intact
Or he goes to the negotiating table in 3 months time
With the place looking like Iraq no running water or electricity

We can see how the Western countries deal with this situation once the virtue signalling is over

Iraq is still a basket case with people living in rubble
And with America bankrupt and its own citizens descending into poverty
The chances they will rebuild Ukraine are 0

Zolensky should have taken the deal 12 months ago

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Bobby.

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #147 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 8:34am

aquascoot wrote on May 23^rd, 2023 at 8:23am:

Yes zelensky either goes to the negotiating table 12 months ago with a lot of his infrastructure intact
Or he goes to the negotiating table in 3 months time
With the place looking like Iraq no running water or electricity

We can see how the Western countries deal with this situation once the virtue signalling is over

Iraq is still a basket case with people living in rubble
And with America bankrupt and its own citizens descending into poverty
The chances they will rebuild Ukraine are 0

Zolensky should have taken the deal 12 months ago

In Feb. 2022 Zelensky should have told NATO that
if they don't immediately join the fight with all their weapons
and all their troops then Ukraine is surrendering to the Russians
and they will have the Russian army on their borders.

Zelensky is a reckless fool to try and take on a superpower with limited weapons -
they always get the fish that John West rejects from NATO -
mostly old and obsolete equipment.
Even the F16s that they are promised now are 40 year old aircraft. Roll Eyes

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JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #148 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 8:36am

there is almost no possibility he can go to the 'negotiating table' bc the ultranationalists will kill him. this war isn't just a battle for the survival of the ukrainian state, it's about zelensky's (and presumably some of his clique's) personal survival too. the only hope is the CIA helps him clean house before he initiates a negotiation but that is unlikely too. the best ukraine can do is stall russia as much as possible in the hopes of either political upheaval (extremely unlikely) or political concessions to leave ukraine entirely by putin (unlikely, but there's some possibly) himself. it may not be possible whatsoever bc the irredentist ultranationalists in ukraine will never be content with any negotiated agreement unless they get crimea 'back' as well, which the kremlins will never ever agree to.

so if this chain of logic is correct, ukraine will be completely destroyed slowly over the coming years.

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JC Denton

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Re: expert - says Ukraine is losing the war badly.
Reply #149 - May 23^rd, 2023 at 8:40am

Quote:

Even the F16s that they are promised now are 40 year old aircraft. Roll Eyes

the obsesion with the jet aircraft is seriously weird, why does everyone think this will be such a game changer? even the russian air force has so far been largely MIA from this conflict bc ukraine is brimming with (who'd of thought it) highly effective soviet anti-air defense systems that are great at shooting down planes. now take into consideration the fact that the russians have better versions of the same systems and way more of them, ukraine getting a few f-16s is not going to make any difference whatsoever to the trajectory of the war.

it's clear people drew the wrong conclusions about the efficacy of anti-air soviet capabilities from the gulf war, where their efficacy was underestimated due to the incompetence of saddam hussein's air-defense corps.

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