Kat wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 4:29pm:


Exactly.

But I notice you are ruling out welfare dependency as the root of the problem in the current crime wave in the Alice (and elsewhere in outback Oz, and Maoris in NZ for that matter).

Even if you increase the dole, you won't close the (black) gap; because unstructured lives turn to alcohol for relief, especially among blacks not familiar, or without access to the internet.

Not to mention huge numbers of (white) people won't want to work, if the dole can support a comfortable, independent lifestyle. 

The time when robots will do most of the s**t boring work is still some time off yet....so until then we will all need to work - and receive wages capable of supporting  independent healthy lifestyles. 

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26^th, 2023 at 12:10pm:





I do rule it out, because it's NOT the root cause.

As to your other point, it's patently false, as was shown with the coronavirus supplement.

Many used that money to get training which would IMPROVE their chances of getting work.

Many used it to get off the streets which would improve their chances of getting work.

Many actually GOT work.

Kat wrote on Jan 27^th, 2023 at 2:44pm:


Bad examples; in April 2020 the federal government paid  all non-essential workers c.$500/week to stay home and isolate,  and also  doubled the dole to about the same amount so homeless people would be able to find accommodation - such was the fear of the virus at that time...pity covid turned out to be mostly a dud, except for old people, and the government was able to cease its support sooner than expected**.

So nothing about the advantages of a decent dole payment could be learnt at that time, because the entire economy was on life-support, maintained by the federal government.

And certainly the long-term unemployed did NOT get jobs when the economy opened up again, disproving your theory that a decent dole will result in lower rates of  long-term unemployment. 

The jobs are simply not there for that cohort of workers who are unable to provide the skills employers are looking for. 

** a half-decent virus would have forced us all (except essential workers in food and utilities)  to stay home and isolate for a year or more - after which time the Fed. government, having spent $trillions to maintain the economy and citizens in lock-down, would have been forced to admit the truth: currency issuing governments with a treasury and central bank, can create money out of thin air, without taxing or borrowing from the citizens.


Which is why a government can also create money until full employment is reached ie for a Job Guarantee. 
[After that, government will need to find other ways to fund policy eg  via taxation. 

   

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 27^th, 2023 at 3:45pm:


The entire global economy is beyond a tipping point, with debt, inequality, and ecological crises looming.

The trouble with a job guarantee = a wage guarantee - is that where there are no jobs, it becomes a matter of appearance money.... merely another form of dole but at a much higher rate .... and does nothing to resolve the underlying social problems.... if anything, the extra money can actually make those worse.

Additionally, as you well know - every time there is more 'discretionary income' lying about, the 'market forces' will always take up the slack via price and COL rises.  It is no secret that whereas with a single income family you could buy - in the 1980's - a house in Marrickville (livin' next door to Albo)... and that the costs of actually buying a house skyrocketed the moment the MADIF (Mandatory Dual Income Family) for many became the reality - meaning that singles (including gays etc) were rapidly phased out of the market, and thus was created yet another pressure on income levels, demanding a rise sufficient for a single to even get into the market - and at the same time offering two in a couple two such rises..... which... surprise, surprise, created another skyrocketing of home prices.

Enter The Demons Of Investor Ownership.... and very lax and loose bank rules for investors - and the problems just went higher and higher for the ordinary person.

It was never going to work.... if you can't see the results today you are blind....

Point being - the moment there is a perception in the market place that those with the ready can afford to pay more - prices will rise to suit, so no benefit will ever come from simple pay/income rises.

THAT, my sons, is why I constantly advocate that costs of living including housing (and dumping privatisation) must first be brought under control - and THEN the attempt made to improve in real terms the REAL prosperity of the many, as opposed to the massive imbalances currently created by a few having all the prosperity and the many none.

You will never alleviate poverty by throwing more money at only the lowest end.... all you will do is raise the bar for what constitutes poverty, and thus draw more and more into it and thus generate an even bigger problem,.

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 27^th, 2023 at 5:01pm:


Wrong of course.


Where there are no jobs in the regular job market, then  government - as employer of last resort - can pay people to do useful work which would otherwise not get done.

Useful work.   ie takes time and application to be performed. 

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Wrong again, there is always potential for extra  supply capacity in food and essential utilities if required, which will avoid 'demand pull' inflation.   

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Interesting that the current  economic model has us all working harder (both adults in a family)  to maintain a satisfactory standard of living, my old man on an average wage supported  a wife and 4 kids in fine style ( annual caravan holidays etc). 

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Yes, the current monetary orthodoxy relies on private debt, ie indebtedness to private financiers/usurers, and 'investment' in the housing Ponzi..

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Productive capacity already mentioned re supply of essentials, which is what we are talking about for non-inflationary wages at the low end.

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You need to explain HOW these costs will be brought under control. 

I advocate control via  PUBLIC sector debt which can be rolled over indefinitely (provided the nation's productivity is maintained).

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You are conceptualising it in the wrong manner; you can ONLY alleviate poverty by ensuring everyone is doing useful work, with govt, acting as ELR.

Having all working above poverty level won't "raise the bar for what poverty is", it will eliminate poverty provided the nation's productive capacity is maintained. 

... and what, for example is that useful work in some remote village of Abos?  Your fabled CDEP has been tried - not one lasting result came from it, not even the motivation to continue to do simple things like pick up the rubbish... why would a guaranteed job do anything more?  What use is part-time rubbish collection in a remote village (the Ning Nang Nong) when it comes out of the dole money and they are no better off?

Right again, I'm afraid...

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