Australian Politics Forum - Past The Tipping Point

Frank

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #45 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 12:14pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 11:00am:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 24^th, 2023 at 11:58pm:

so now you have your common denominator..... now go back and read my reasons for this up there as you asked and then ignored.... clear as crystal ..

You "reasons" are all wrong; you need a functional family living in clean safe housing, before you can learn a trade. That is as clear as crystal, but not to you apparently.

Who has wrecked those houses given to them in goid condition, who is not keeping those houses clean? Who is drinking instead of making breakfast for the kids and taking them to school? Who is sexually abusing those kids, beating their mothers and siblings? Who is letting the kids roam the street at night? Who?

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #46 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 12:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 11:00am:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 24^th, 2023 at 11:58pm:

so now you have your common denominator..... now go back and read my reasons for this up there as you asked and then ignored.... clear as crystal ..

You "reasons" are all wrong; you need a functional family living in clean safe housing, before you can learn a trade. That is as clear as crystal, but not to you apparently.

So there you go - you confess they don't live in safe clean housing - exactly as I said. Jeez you're slow.... on purpose it seems to me. Are you.... you know... taking over from Lefty the Deluded in trying to irritate people here as your only way of getting at them?

Quote:

One of my kids' cousins in NZ is married to a Maori - he has a degree and a job... hard as that last is to get in Nu Zulland in reality - so seriously - WTF are you talking about? Lack of incentive to raise self by own bootstraps? Whose fault is that? Do you really imagine that any cash flood will make any difference given that it only encourages the recipients to not co-operate?

Fallacy of composition: because someone you know managed to get a job doesn't mean everyone CAN get a job.

Totally wrong - anyone can get a job - everyone might not. You need to review your academic standards, stop pretending you actually know what you are talking about.

Quote:

Jeez - even that NT chief minister sheila said the communities had to co-operate in fixing their own problems... though she won't enforce that but will instead kow-tow to the 'shareholder advisors' and just hand the money out for them to throw around that would be a first ... you can't lift a dead weight by putting dollars under it.

You can't fix your own problems in the current vicious neoliberal market which forces those who can't compete onto welfare dependency.

Same old, same old - everyone's fault but theirs and it's a conspiracy to keep them down... no personal responsibility or effort required. You need some new material - that ain't working..

Quote:

Even that NT 'chief minister' said the communities would have to co-operate in fixing their own problems... that'd be a first! What will happen in reality is that the 'stakeholder advisors' will talk up how they want to spend the money, then they'll employ their family, buy beaut cars and such, and use it for their own homes etc. The money will be gone with no result and the problems will just continue as usual - and the 'chief minister' for all her bluster, will do NOTHING but ask for more and more!

Afraid to comment there? It's not a trap, you know, this requirement for some mutual Key Performance Indicators as a prerequisite for cash handed out like chaff in a high wind. All that is required is that for each tranche of cash, there must be indications of genuine progress in substance abuse, crime, violence, neglect, cleanliness, forward planning to future viable communities, and so forth...

No progress - no next tranche... Albo said that with regard to the 'voice' remember, then quietly dropped it from his vernacular... well - of course he did.... he just wants it open-ended and all from us to them, right? Only under feminism in New Labor could such a man exist, let alone prosper.

As noted before, the chief minister is complicit in the welfare dependency resulting from the vicious neoliberal market orthodoxy which leaves those who can't find work to rot in welfare dependency.

(**snores**)

Quote:

Christ, you and a heap of others need to get out more - get up there and take a good look.

while you need to begin to correctly analyse the problem at hand.

I have analysed it correctly -you are sadly lacking n that department. You will never raise the Cheers out of their chosen lifestyle your way... simple ... they must take an active part in their own salvation.

You're a Labor sheila, aren't you - paid to push this guff?

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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #47 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 12:29pm

Frank wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 12:14pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 11:00am:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 24^th, 2023 at 11:58pm:

so now you have your common denominator..... now go back and read my reasons for this up there as you asked and then ignored.... clear as crystal ..

You "reasons" are all wrong; you need a functional family living in clean safe housing, before you can learn a trade. That is as clear as crystal, but not to you apparently.

Who has wrecked those houses given to them in goid condition, who is not keeping those houses clean? Who is drinking instead of making breakfast for the kids and taking them to school? Who is sexually abusing those kids, beating their mothers and siblings? Who is letting the kids roam the street at night? Who?

It's not just the blokes who physically abuse the kids... 'mothers' kill more of them than 'fathers'..... and 'mothers' are equally complicit in kids roaming the streets hungry etc.

My uncle - a well-known copper known as The Black Fullah (his children are olive skinned like me and his wife was part Abo) - used to head down the pub in his town and send all the sheilas home to their kids... literally in those words - come on - finish that drink and out of here and get home to your kids and feed them! That was a long time ago now.... and wouldn't be allowed any more - official abuse... Roll Eyes

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #48 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:24pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 12:25pm:

So there you go - you confess they don't live in safe clean housing - exactly as I said. Jeez you're slow.... on purpose it seems to me. Are you.... you know... taking over from Lefty the Deluded in trying to irritate people here as your only way of getting at them?

An intriguing response, let's see if we can sort it out.

They don't live in clean safe housing because people consigned by the system** to living on the dole don't have the resources to build clean safe housing.

** I already explained how you are falling into the fallacy of composition re "choice" to live on the dole; people don't "choose" to do so, long-term unemployment is systemic, not amenable by individuals.

So let's see your response:

Quote:

Totally wrong - anyone can get a job - everyone might not. You need to review your academic standards, stop pretending you actually know what you are talking about.

...so according to you ..."anyone CAN get a job" equates to "ALL can get a job"; and if someone cannot (or does not) it must be his own fault.

Fallacy of composition, still.

Quote:

Same old, same old - everyone's fault but theirs and it's a conspiracy to keep them down... no personal responsibility or effort required. You need some new material - that ain't working..

As noted above, everyone can (is free to) get a job, but that doesn't mean all will get a job even if everyone desires to get a job, because unemployment is built into the current NAIRU job market.

Quote:

Afraid to comment there?

No, as you well know...

Quote:

It's not a trap, you know, this requirement for some mutual Key Performance Indicators as a prerequisite for cash handed out like chaff in a high wind.

The trap is welfare dependency itself which is imposed by the system, not sought by individuals.

Quote:

All that is required is that for each tranche of cash, there must be indications of genuine progress in substance abuse, crime, violence, neglect, cleanliness, forward planning to future viable communities, and so forth...

Study the history of the CDEP before it was cancelled by neoliberal free market ideologues. More employment reduced alcoholism and crime.

Welfare dependency increases alcoholism and crime.

Quote:

No progress - no next tranche...

a job is required , not the next tranche of 'sit-down' money - the ultimate failure of an economic system to employ everyone.

Quote:

Albo said that with regard to the 'voice' remember, then quietly dropped it from his vernacular... well - of course he did.... he just wants it open-ended and all from us to them, right? Only under feminism in New Labor could such a man exist, let alone prosper.

Albo is as complicit is the current dysfunctional job market as you are; the difference between you and him is he has a heart.

Quote:

(**snores**)

You are sleeping through the most important lesson of all; even prof Ross Garnaut, hardly a radical Marxist, says the central bank can finance the (central) government up to full employment.

Quote:

I have analysed it correctly -you are sadly lacking n that department. You will never raise the Cheers out of their chosen lifestyle your way... simple ... they must take an active part in their own salvation.

(I'm afraid it's time for my usual drill); examined and refuted, above....

To repeat: blacks in the aggregate do not choose their lifestyle, even if individuals can manage to do so, because there exists a systemic barrier in the form of entrenched long-term unemployment, and a commitment to culture however misplaced.

Quote:

You're a Labor sheila, aren't you - paid to push this guff?

Wrong again....

Stick to what you (sadly) regard as facts.....

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« Last Edit: Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:36pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15656 Gender:	Re: Past The Tipping Point Reply #49 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:25pm >
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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #50 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:27pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:24pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 12:25pm:

So there you go - you confess they don't live in safe clean housing - exactly as I said. Jeez you're slow.... on purpose it seems to me. Are you.... you know... taking over from Lefty the Deluded in trying to irritate people here as your only way of getting at them?

An intriguing response, let's see if we can sort it out.

They don't live in clean safe housing because people consigned by the system** to living on the dole don't have the resources to build clean safe housing.

** I already explained how you are falling into the fallacy of composition re "choice" to live on the dole; people don't "choose" to do so, long-term unemployment is systemic, not amenable by individuals.

So let's see your response:

Quote:

Totally wrong - anyone can get a job - everyone might not. You need to review your academic standards, stop pretending you actually know what you are talking about.

...so according to you ..."anyone CAN get a job" equates to "ALL can get a job"; and if someone cannot (or does not) it must be his own fault.

Fallacy of composition, still.

Quote:

Same old, same old - everyone's fault but theirs and it's a conspiracy to keep them down... no personal responsibility or effort required. You need some new material - that ain't working..

As noted above, everyone can (is free to) get a job, but that doesn't mean all will get a job even if everyone desires to get a job, because unemployment is built into the current NAIRU job market.

Quote:

Afraid to comment there?

No, as you well know...

Quote:

It's not a trap, you know, this requirement for some mutual Key Performance Indicators as a prerequisite for cash handed out like chaff in a high wind.

The trap is welfare dependency itself which is imposed by the system, not sought by individuals.

Quote:

All that is required is that for each tranche of cash, there must be indications of genuine progress in substance abuse, crime, violence, neglect, cleanliness, forward planning to future viable communities, and so forth...

Study the history of the CDEP before it was cancelled by neoliberal free market ideologues. More employment reduced alcoholism and crime.

Welfare dependency increases alcoholism and crime.

Quote:

No progress - no next tranche...

a job is required , not the next tranche of 'sit-down' money - the ultimate failure of an economic system to employ everyone.

Quote:

Albo said that with regard to the 'voice' remember, then quietly dropped it from his vernacular... well - of course he did.... he just wants it open-ended and all from us to them, right? Only under feminism in New Labor could such a man exist, let alone prosper.

Albo is as complicit is the current dysfunctional job market as you are; the difference between you and him is he has a heart.

Quote:

(**snores**)[/quote

You are sleeping through the most important lesson of all; even prof Ross Garnaut, hardly a radical Marxist, says the central bank can finance the (central) government up to full employment.

I have analysed it correctly -you are sadly lacking n that department. You will never raise the Cheers out of their chosen lifestyle your way... simple ... they must take an active part in their own salvation.

(I'm afraid it's time for my usual drill); examined and refuted, above....

To repeat: blacks in the aggregate do not choose their lifestyle, even if individuals can manage to do so, because there exists a systemic barrier in the form of entrenched long-term unemployment.

Quote:

You're a Labor sheila, aren't you - paid to push this guff?

Wrong again....

Stick to what you (sadly) regard as facts.....

Read up - safe clean housing is provided for them.... blacks in the aggregate DO choose their own lifestyle... there are avenues open to them everywhere, more than to poor white boys...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Racist Filth

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #51 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:36pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:24pm:

[quote author=The_Grappler link=1674526042/46#46 date=1674613514]So there you go - you confess they don't live in safe clean housing - exactly as I said. Jeez you're slow.... on purpose it seems to me. Are you.... you know... taking over from Lefty the Deluded in trying to irritate people here as your only way of getting at them?

An intriguing response, let's see if we can sort it out.

They don't live in clean safe housing because people consigned by the system** to living on the dole don't have the resources to build clean safe housing.

They are provided housing - what they do with it is their own concern.

** I already explained how you are falling into the fallacy of composition re "choice" to live on the dole; people don't "choose" to do so, long-term unemployment is systemic, not amenable by individuals.

So choosing to remain in a low employment area is not a choice, as in not pursuing higher education or even lower education

So let's see your response:

Quote:

Totally wrong - anyone can get a job - everyone might not. You need to review your academic standards, stop pretending you actually know what you are talking about.

...so according to you ..."anyone CAN get a job" equates to "ALL can get a job"; and if someone cannot (or does not) it must be his own fault.

Ridiculous interpretation... learn the small difference between any and every.

Fallacy of composition, still.

Nonsense that repeating will not change... learn English.

Quote:

Same old, same old - everyone's fault but theirs and it's a conspiracy to keep them down... no personal responsibility or effort required. You need some new material - that ain't working..

As noted above, everyone can (is free to) get a job, but that doesn't mean all will get a job even if everyone desires to get a job, because unemployment is built into the current NAIRU job market.

So now you agree with what I said above! Truly astounding - give that person two jelly beans! Like drawing teeth, this is.

Quote:

Afraid to comment there?

No, as you well know...

Quote:

It's not a trap, you know, this requirement for some mutual Key Performance Indicators as a prerequisite for cash handed out like chaff in a high wind.

The trap is welfare dependency itself which is imposed by the system, not sought by individuals.

Quote:

All that is required is that for each tranche of cash, there must be indications of genuine progress in substance abuse, crime, violence, neglect, cleanliness, forward planning to future viable communities, and so forth...

Study the history of the CDEP before it was cancelled by neoliberal free market ideologues. More employment reduced alcoholism and crime.

It wasn't producing the results as shown by its utter lack of impetus once the cash was withdrawn - nobody learned a thing to put to lasting use... just money for appearing.

Welfare dependency increases alcoholism and crime.

Alcohol dependency increases alcoholism and crime - crime dependency increases crime. Most people on social security do not engage in crime.

Quote:

No progress - no next tranche...

a job is required , not the next tranche of 'sit-down' money - the ultimate failure of an economic system to employ everyone.

Now you are starting to make sense. HOWEVER - there must be social improvements for this kind of money - that's what it is for -not just make jobs handed around so the situation of buying booze etc becomes easier financially... last thing they need. It's not money for nothing - they have to work on their social problems to get it to work on those problems.

Quote:

Albo said that with regard to the 'voice' remember, then quietly dropped it from his vernacular... well - of course he did.... he just wants it open-ended and all from us to them, right? Only under feminism in New Labor could such a man exist, let alone prosper.

Albo is as complicit is the current dysfunctional job market as you are; the difference between you and him is he has a heart.

(**snores**) What utter nonsense.

Quote:

(**snores**)[/quote

You are sleeping through the most important lesson of all; even prof Ross Garnaut, hardly a radical Marxist, says the central bank can finance the (central) government up to full employment.

I have analysed it correctly -you are sadly lacking n that department. You will never raise the Cheers out of their chosen lifestyle your way... simple ... they must take an active part in their own salvation.

(I'm afraid it's time for my usual drill); examined and refuted, above....

Not at all - you've refuted by the correct standards - nothing... merely posted a differing view.

To repeat: blacks in the aggregate do not choose their lifestyle, even if individuals can manage to do so, because there exists a systemic barrier in the form of entrenched long-term unemployment.

So go where the jobs are... and remember that this is not a situation they are alone in

Quote:

You're trained by a Labor sheila, aren't you - paid to push this guff?

[/qu

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #52 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:51pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:27pm:

Read up - safe clean housing is provided for them....

Not in sufficient quantities, and with no provision for maintenance; in any case moot in dysfunctional welfare dependent communities where alcoholism becomes the chief pastime; indeed the authorities are only too aware if they take away the grog they'll have a real riot on their hands - even now people are smashing into homes at night, demanding grog.

Quote:

blacks in the aggregate DO choose their own lifestyle... there are avenues open to them everywhere, more than to poor white boys...

You refuse to look at the consequences of attachment to culture AND the white man's enforced welfare dependency. I have yet to receive your concession that not all who want a job can get a job, even if some can get a job.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15656 Gender:	Re: Past The Tipping Point Reply #53 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:53pm >
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #54 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 2:52pm

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 1:36pm:

They are provided housing - what they do with it is their own concern.

Not in sufficient quantities, over crowding is rife; and the dysfunction of alcoholism as a way of life under systemically imposed welfare dependency, quickly results in badly maintained/destroyed homes.

Quote:

So choosing to remain in a low employment area is not a choice, as in not pursuing higher education or even lower education

Correct. Children too afraid to go home at night are not in a position to pursue education.

Quote:

Ridiculous interpretation... learn the small difference between any and every.

You claim anyone can get a job, even though not everyone who wants a job does get a job - which is just fact: over a million long-term unemployed in Oz proves it.

That's the difference.

Quote:

Nonsense that repeating will not change... learn English.

Your RW fallacy of composition continues...low IQ?

Quote:

So now you agree with what I said above! Truly astounding - give that person two jelly beans! Like drawing teeth, this is.

refuted above: the fact of involuntary unemployment proves you are wrong.

Quote:

It wasn't producing the results as shown by its utter lack of impetus once the cash was withdrawn - nobody learned a thing to put to lasting use... just money for appearing.

It created employment, and reduced welfare dependency, alcoholism and crime.

Quote:

Alcohol dependency increases alcoholism and crime - crime dependency increases crime. Most people on social security do not engage in crime.

"most people" (ie whites on the dole) are not suffering the effects of living with their smashed culture, with alcohol the destructive drug of choice to achieve oblivion from the pain of the smashed culture.

Quote:

Now you are starting to make sense. HOWEVER - there must be social improvements for this kind of money - that's what it is for - not just make jobs

It's only by ensuring employment that social improvement can occur, because we have seen how destructive welfare dependency is in the context of a demoralized culture. It's interesting the number of references to "pride" in culture we hear these days, in an attempt to counter the present terrible reality.

Quote:

handed around so the situation of buying booze etc becomes easier financially... last thing they need.

Employed people have less time and reason to abuse alcohol

Quote:

It's not money for nothing - they have to work on their social problems to get it to work on those problems.

A job works magic....

Quote:

Not at all - you've refuted by the correct standards - nothing... merely posted a differing view.

yes, Garnaut is advocating for full employment, you are advocating the current NAIRU economy with involuntary unemployment.

I assume the real reason for your stance is taxation: "who will pay for (full employment)".

Quote:

So go where the jobs are... and remember that this is not a situation they are alone

Fallacy of composition: involuntary unemployment exists everywhere in the current dysfunctional system, not everyone will get a job, even if they move.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 15656 Gender:	Re: Past The Tipping Point Reply #55 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 2:53pm >
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Kat

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #56 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 4:12pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 24^th, 2023 at 7:58pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 24^th, 2023 at 7:36pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 24^th, 2023 at 7:06pm:

Grappler Racist Filth wrote on Jan 24^th, 2023 at 6:58pm:

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/rofling.gif

Thanks for your picture, but it doesn't shine light on the causes of the problems in Alice Springs, or why Adern's ratings plummeted in NZ.

Try understanding the issues for blacks who are attempting "to live in two worlds" (as per the Uluru statement) , to preserve their culture, while they have been relegated to living on the dole, which is our culture's way of dealing with those who can't compete in neoliberal markets.

Let's see now - what are the causes of the problems in Alice Springs..... that's a hard one...... let's see now..... I'll try to keep it short......... too much drinking.... too much steeping in a culture of violence .... poor parenting and parental control .... disastrous family life that ends up with 42.2% of the 45,000 children in care being (gasps) Aboriginal ...... tribal differences (same here between our local lot and 'up the road' one town or further up where there are three tribal lots and they feud constantly) ... the carefully concealed program of developing the brushfire war of terrorism against Whitey in the rather stupid hope of that forcing a positive vote for a 'voice' through fear of consequences of a NO vote..... same again with the rather stupid hope of (gasp) driving Whitey out of the Terr-Uh'Tree, something clearly aided and abetted by the 'government' up there with its 90 degree list to black end tekin' beck their lend, mete, and also by Federal Labor!! One thing you are seeing in the terr-uh-tree is what happens when the majority Blacks vote majority for those who support their way of doing things..... also what happens when you permit a stupid law system to put a cop on trial for killing in self-defence just because the perpetrator was of a certajn colour/social group/ethnicity and let them get away with demands for 'payback' meaning threats of death to that officer....... and all the whoop-whoopers in favour say that the voice etc is not special rights and privileges, not to mention even more free money, to a certain group along the same lines. They say on the one hand there can be no division along lines of race etc, then set about creating exactly that.

Now the Ardern... well... you see..... the smarmy army idea of a co-operative government with the Maori and the Pakeha and offering the Maori a heap of good stuff like houses etc.... just hasn't worked out with reduced crime rates and such... and so the Pakeha and the Maori are waking up to this paper-thin ideologically driven sheila style social science founded program..... giving Jake The Mus a better house won't stop the problems..... and you see the exact same utter stupidity being played out here in Australia as we speak.... Wink

Phew - you really come up with the hard questions, don't you?

https://media.tenor.com/ZiVl8Cttpd0AAAAC/laughing-baby.gif

Whether they are hard or not, you certainly don't have the answers to eradicating welfare dependency and the associated crime.

And as for poverty reduction and provision of social housing in NZ:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-big-promises-jacinda-didn-t-keep-20230122-p5...

NationalHousing affordability
OPINION
The big promises Jacinda didn’t keep
Roshena Campbell

"Her other policy offerings to New Zealanders were not extensive but the most important was a promise to tackle New Zealand’s housing crisis because as she said as opposition leader, “Too many families are missing out on buying homes”.

Of course the MSM are great at criticizing politicians of all stripes, but have no clue WHY she couldn't improve home ownership rates or provision of social housing.
9quick google)
" In New Zealand, the association between poverty and benefit receipt is strong, and Māori and Pacific People are disproportionately adversely affected..."

So welfare dependency is the problem in NZ as well.

No.

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Kat

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Re: Past The Tipping Point
Reply #57 - Jan 25^th, 2023 at 4:29pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 2:52pm: