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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #570 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:19pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:00pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 4:06pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 5:52pm:

I repeat - the holy sites do not belong to Israel -
they belong to the whole world.

Maybe the United Nations should take control of all the Holy sites
so that at least it might be safe for tourists to go to Israel and visit them.

Indeed.

That's in fact what UN res 181 proposes.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-185393/

"City of Jerusalem

A. SPECIAL REGIME

The City of Jerusalem shall be established as a 'corpus separatum' under a special international regime and shall be administered by the United Nations. The Trusteeship Council shall be designated to discharge the responsibilities of the Administering Authority on behalf of the United Nations.

..and preceding (in Chapter 1):

Chapter 1

Holy Places, religious buildings and sites

1.Existing rights in respect of Holy Places and religious buildings or sites shall not be denied or impaired.

etc.

Then why is access to the holy sites in such chaos and so dangerous?

.. because the UNSC was crippled at its inception in 1946 by access to the veto power being insisted upon by the US and USSR (the USSR insisted on a separate vote for each of its constituent members, and the US doesn't do the international co-operation - much less interntionl law....except when it's in its own interest....)

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 51861 At my desk.	Re: Zionism Reply #571 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:20pm Ah. It's all America's fault.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #572 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:22pm

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:20pm:

Ah. It's all America's fault.

Can't you read?

because the UNSC was crippled at its inception in 1946 by access to the veto power being insisted upon by the US and USSR (the USSR insisted on a separate vote for each of its constituent members, and the US doesn't do international co-operation - much less internationl law....except when it's in its own interest....)

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #573 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:35pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:22pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:20pm:

Ah. It's all America's fault.

Can't you read?

because the UNSC was crippled at its inception in 1946 by access to the veto power being insisted upon by the US and USSR (the USSR insisted on a separate vote for each of its constituent members, and the US doesn't do international co-operation - much less internationl law....except when it's in its own interest....)

Yes. The Muslims were basically forced to blow things up.

By America.

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Bobby.

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Re: Zionism
Reply #574 - Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:52pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:19pm:

.. because the UNSC was crippled at its inception in 1946 by access to the veto power being insisted upon by the US and USSR (the USSR insisted on a separate vote for each of its constituent members, and the US doesn't do the international co-operation - much less interntionl law....except when it's in its own interest....)

One problem is that the Muslims built their Mosque right on top
of the Jews most holy site at the Temple Mount - the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque

The mosque is located on the southern part of the Temple Mount or Haram al-Sharif, an enclosure expanded by King Herod the Great beginning in 20 BCE during his reconstruction of the Second Jewish Temple.

On 15 April 2022, Israeli forces entered the Temple Mount and used tear gas shells and sound bombs to disperse Palestinians who, they said, were throwing stones at policemen. Some Palestinians barricaded themselves inside the Al-Aqsa mosque, where they were detained by Israeli police. Over 150 people ended up injured and 400 arrested.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #575 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 11:32am

Bobby. wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:52pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:19pm:

.. because the UNSC was crippled at its inception in 1946 by access to the veto power being insisted upon by the US and USSR (the USSR insisted on a separate vote for each of its constituent members, and the US doesn't do international co-operation - much less international law....except when it's in its own interest....)

One problem is that the Muslims built their Mosque right on top
of the Jews most holy site at the Temple Mount - the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Yes. The Romans of course destroyed the third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount (ie, Herod's foundations which remain today).

6 centurries later Moslems built the 'Dome of the Rock' and the Al-Aqsa mosque on this 'temple mount'.

But you asked why the UN can't administer the place as global heritage, as envisioned in UN res 181. ...

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #576 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:24pm

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 5:45pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 10:34am:

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2023 at 5:59am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 27^th, 2023 at 11:11pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2023 at 5:49pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 27^th, 2023 at 10:45am:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2023 at 6:50am:

Quote:

The Brits reneged on L of A's promises to the Arabs.

And you think that is why the Muslims hate Jews?

No, they hate them for carving Israel out of Palestine.

So they had no issues with Jews prior to that?

Well, the Koran has some problems with Jews as well; but when Jews (and others) decided (on the back of a Western invented institution, the UN - one of the West's finer but incomplete creations), to carve Israel out of Palestine, that was the straw which 'broke the camel's back'.

Why do you think it upset them so much?

The same reason Zelensky is overseeing the destruction of his country, to hang onto Crimea and Russian- speaking Donbass...

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with that Chinese proverb.

Are you going to translate this from gibberish to English for us?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #577 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:36pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:24pm:

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with that Chinese proverb.

Insisting on facing massive force with an opposing force which is guaranteed to result in the destruction of your country is not a Chinese proverb, it's madness.

Quote:

Are you going to translate this from gibberish to English for us?

Your delusional individual sovereignty/"freedom" ideology converts rational analysis into "gibberish", hence the human condition of insane endless wars.

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #578 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:06pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:36pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:24pm:

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with that Chinese proverb.

Insisting on facing massive force with an opposing force which is guaranteed to result in the destruction of your country is not a Chinese proverb, it's madness.

Quote:

Are you going to translate this from gibberish to English for us?

Your delusional individual sovereignty/"freedom" ideology converts rational analysis into "gibberish", hence the human condition of insane endless wars.

Is that why the Muslims were so upset about having a Jewish state come into existence?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #579 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:37pm

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:06pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:36pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:24pm:

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with that Chinese proverb.

Insisting on facing massive force with an opposing force which is guaranteed to result in the destruction of your country is not a Chinese proverb, it's madness.

Quote:

Are you going to translate this from gibberish to English for us?

Your delusional individual sovereignty/"freedom" ideology converts rational analysis into "gibberish", hence the human condition of insane endless wars.

Is that why the Muslims were so upset about having a Jewish state come into existence?

Yes, the same irrational 'law of the jungle' instincts re possession of land - instincts which drive us all. Some even dress these instincts up as "The Promised Land"...

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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #580 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:51pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:37pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 1:06pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:36pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 12:24pm:

Sorry, I am unfamiliar with that Chinese proverb.

Insisting on facing massive force with an opposing force which is guaranteed to result in the destruction of your country is not a Chinese proverb, it's madness.

Quote:

Are you going to translate this from gibberish to English for us?

Your delusional individual sovereignty/"freedom" ideology converts rational analysis into "gibberish", hence the human condition of insane endless wars.

Is that why the Muslims were so upset about having a Jewish state come into existence?

Yes, the same irrational 'law of the jungle' instincts re possession of land - instincts which drive us all. Some even dress these instincts up as "The Promised Land"...

So everyone has an instinct to kill Jews for their land?

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 14532 Gender:	Re: Zionism Reply #581 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 3:02pm freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:51pm: So everyone has an instinct to kill Jews for their land? No, everyone has an instinct to kill for what they perceive as their own land.
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freediver

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Re: Zionism
Reply #582 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 3:08pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 3:02pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 2:51pm:

So everyone has an instinct to kill Jews for their land?

No, everyone has an instinct to kill for what they perceive as their own land.

People's instinct is to run from war, not towards it. Their instinct is for self preservation, not real estate. It takes a great deal of training (or brainwashing) to overcome that instinct.

Would you like to try again?

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Bobby.

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Re: Zionism
Reply #583 - Apr 30^th, 2023 at 3:38pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 11:32am:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:52pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Apr 29^th, 2023 at 6:19pm:

.. because the UNSC was crippled at its inception in 1946 by access to the veto power being insisted upon by the US and USSR (the USSR insisted on a separate vote for each of its constituent members, and the US doesn't do international co-operation - much less international law....except when it's in its own interest....)

One problem is that the Muslims built their Mosque right on top
of the Jews most holy site at the Temple Mount - the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Yes. The Romans of course destroyed the third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount (ie, Herod's foundations which remain today).

6 centurries later Moslems built the 'Dome of the Rock' and the Al-Aqsa mosque on this 'temple mount'.

But you asked why the UN can't administer the place as global heritage, as envisioned in UN res 181. ...

I dunno - it's get complicated if you want to visit there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount_entry_restrictions

Israeli restriction policy

Christians and Jews may only visit the site as tourists and only for four hours per day five days per week.[17][18] Israel also restricts the number of religious Jews that can visit at a time. Until 2003, it was limited to five; in 2003 it was increased to 10; in 2010 it was increased to 20 and in 2011 it was again increased to 50 at a time.[19]

During times of political tension and fear of riots, Israel has restricted entry of Muslims to men and women over a certain age. The age limit has varied according to decisions taken by security officials. The restrictions do not affect Jews or tourists who can enter regardless of their age.[20] Entry restrictions were frequently imposed during the 2015–2016 wave of violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Some examples:

October 23, 2009: Entry restricted to Muslim men over 45 and Muslim women over 35.[21]
July 1, 2011: Entry restricted to Muslim men over 45.[22]
November 7, 2014: Entry restricted to Muslim men over 35.[20]
October 4, 2015: Entry restricted to Muslim men over 50 for two days.[23]
July 21, 2017: Entry restricted to Muslim men over 50.[

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Zionism
Reply #584 - May 1^st, 2023 at 10:09am

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2023 at 3:08pm:

People's instinct is to run from war, not towards it.

You are confused: the poor sods who will be fighting the war would rather not fight, of course; but the nations' leaders demanding "we will not give up an inch of our soil...." - the rallying cry for the troops - are very much driven by the old territorial instinct. Putin, and the Russian people , didn't need the Crimea for their "self-preservation", though Crimea, being mostly populated by Russians, voted for Russian sovereignty.

That's why Putin went into Ukraine, and why Arabs objected to Jews carving Israel out of Palestine....and why settler ideologues demand their right to the
"God given" WB, nothing to do with "self-preservation", only preservation of their ideology.

Quote:

Laughable. Their instinct is for self preservation, not real estate.

Refuted above.

Quote:

It takes a great deal of training (or brainwashing) to overcome that instinct.

Wrong of course. Everyone in Oz would fight to defend their homes against an actual invader of Oz land.

Quote:

Would you like to try again?

You denying reality - grasping onto delusional individual sovereignty/"freedom" ideology, is par for the course.

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