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China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead (Read 8020 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #90 - Jun 29th, 2025 at 11:40am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 28th, 2025 at 8:42am:
Quote:
To your last two questions: you have made a simple error - Mao's mistake was based on misreading of Marx; whereas the CCP - also driven by Marx's "socialist' ideal - adopted a pragmatic approach to economic management and created the Chinese miracle.


So the CCP is still being pragmatic and merit-based, even when it "misreads" Marx and starves 50 million of it's own citizens to death, then rewards the leader responsible?


No, you continue to be hopelessly ideologically confused.

1. Mao's CCP was not pragmatic, it was still ideological.

2. As to merit, that is an ideal for all governing politicians, whether in a consensus one-party model or adversarial multi-party system.

3. I have already explained Marx did not consider economic reform of subsistence agricultural societies, but of industrialized ones during the Industrial Revolution in europe in the 19th century. 

Only Marx's  POLITICAL theory of "socialist' government had any agency in states like Russia and China in the early 20th century; his ECONOMIC economic theories re industrial workers versus capitalists did not.

Today of course only Marx's  POLITCAL theories  re "socialism" have any relevence anywhere, eg in China and the US - witness supporters of "democratic socialism" in the US, in our post industrial age. 

4. Hence Mao's mistake (ie, "misreading" of Marx), resulting in "50 mlllion deaths".

5. Mao today is only revered for founding socialism in China; pragmatists like Deng and later CCP leaders deserve recognition for their role in the "Chinese miracle 1990-2016, achieving economic growth of 10% per annum, unparalled in history for a huge population.

And if Xi's pragmatic CCP can successfully manage the Chinese economy through the  current geopolitical storm inititated by 'MAGA' Trump, Xi will deserve reward also, unlike the ideologue Mao, who was infected with the (opposite) 'mirror image' of your mental disease, ie blind ideology.   

In fact, Western-trained Neoclassical economists in the PBofC are the greatest threat to China's prosperity today, as are Neoclassical economists to the world in general, which is what Trump is really struggling with - though he doesn't understand it.

Quote:
How big of a "little error" does a CCP leader have to make before he would be publicly criticised (while he is still alive)?


I have taken the time to expose the errors in your blind ideoelogy-based  narrative, in the 5 points above.

Hope it helps.....
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freediver
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #91 - Jun 29th, 2025 at 12:40pm
 
So when did the CCP switch to being pragmatic and merit based?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #92 - Jun 30th, 2025 at 4:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2025 at 12:40pm:
So when did the CCP switch to being pragmatic and merit based?


Deng: "as long as the cat catches mice, its colour doesn't matter".
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freediver
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #93 - Jun 30th, 2025 at 6:12pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 30th, 2025 at 4:06pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2025 at 12:40pm:
So when did the CCP switch to being pragmatic and merit based?


Deng: "as long as the cat catches mice, its colour doesn't matter".


How did it change it's internal culture?

If Australia's unemployment benefits are more than double China's median income, would that be considered meritorious by the CCP and an example to try to follow?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #94 - Jul 1st, 2025 at 11:47am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2025 at 6:12pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 30th, 2025 at 4:06pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2025 at 12:40pm:
So when did the CCP switch to being pragmatic and merit based?


Deng: "as long as the cat catches mice, its colour doesn't matter".


How did it change it's internal culture?


The change was from a wholly command economy, to a part free-enterprise market economy

Quote:
If Australia's unemployment benefits are more than double China's median income, would that be considered meritorious by the CCP and an example to try to follow?


No to both questions.  The CCP is aiming to achieve "a prosperous, green socialist society"** by 2049; since Deng's reforms the CCP has overseen "the Chinese miracle" by creating the world largest middle class (over 400 million people) and lifting the remaining c. 700 million Chinese out of absolute poverty at th same time (compared with India which still has 700 million living in absolute poverty.

**which means prosperity for all people, not only some - as in predominantly free-market, capitalist economies.

And even now, there is more housing stress - re accessibility - in Oz than in China, though you are so ideoligically blind you recently denied there was a housing crises in Oz (citing fake arguments about "McMansions" - prefab 'affordable' homes are beng considered in Oz, by necessity). 
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freediver
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #95 - Jul 1st, 2025 at 12:01pm
 
Quote:
The change was from a wholly command economy, to a part free-enterprise market economy


My question was, how did it change it's internal culture. I meant the culture of the CCP. Not directly related to the economy. It is probably one of the largest organisations in the world. It stood by and watched 50 million of its own citizens starve to death. It killed tens of millions of Chinese people in order to create the opportunity to have such an epic failure, and it rewarded the leader responsible by putting him back in charge so he could start killing Chinese people again. An organisation that can do that will not magically switch to one based on merit and pragmatism. The stagnation of the economy over the last decade and the absurd mishandling of covid (which cost millions more lives while the CCP again just stood by and watched) is clear evidence of that.

Quote:
The CCP is aiming to achieve "a prosperous, green socialist society"


And the only way it can get any sort of prosperity is to liberalise the economy?
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #96 - Jul 6th, 2025 at 12:16pm
 
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #97 - Jul 27th, 2025 at 8:29am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2025 at 12:01pm:
Quote:
The change was from a wholly command economy, to a part free-enterprise market economy


My question was, how did it change it's internal culture. I meant the culture of the CCP. Not directly related to the economy. It is probably one of the largest organisations in the world. It stood by and watched 50 million of its own citizens starve to death. It killed tens of millions of Chinese people in order to create the opportunity to have such an epic failure, and it rewarded the leader responsible by putting him back in charge so he could start killing Chinese people again. An organisation that can do that will not magically switch to one based on merit and pragmatism. The stagnation of the economy over the last decade and the absurd mishandling of covid (which cost millions more lives while the CCP again just stood by and watched) is clear evidence of that.


The government of China is a consensus one-party meritocracy;  how much "internal change in culture" do you want? (....cough, I'm asking FD...)

It's success will depend on its ability to change its economic policies as global geopolitical and technological changes continue apace. 

The pragmatic CCP avhieved the "Chibese miracle" for which they deserve praise; the current downturn is due to private sector treatment of housing as an investment vehicle, and Trump's efforts to inhibit China's continued development (via trade and technology-tranfer rstrictions), and will require new thinking by China's economists.

Quote:
And the only way it can get any sort of prosperity is to liberalise the economy?


No; as noted above, 'liberalization' of the economy is part of the current problem - a bit like Oz's current housing disaster (but with differnet demographic forces in play).

btw, it's very pleasing to see the separatist, "freedom" DPP ideologues in Taiwan have failed dismally in their attempt to limit the powers of the pro-Bejing KMT in parliament.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/east-asia/taiwan-recall-vote-kmt-blow-president-...

Taiwanese voters reject attempt to recall opposition lawmakers in blow to President Lai

Civic groups backed by President Lai Ching-te's Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) had sought to unseat 24 lawmakers from the main opposition Kuomintang party (KMT), which controls parliament with the help of another party.

Like you, the "freedom" DDP ideologues would rather destroy Taiwan - which is a province of China as Trump knows -  in a war with the mainland, rather than seeking a 'one country, two systems' solution.

Deplorable. 
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freediver
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #98 - Jul 27th, 2025 at 9:01am
 
Quote:
how much "internal change in culture" do you want?


Given that it rewarded the man who starved 50 million Chinese people to death by putting him back in power so he could start the killing again, quite a lot.

Imagine if, after the allies defeated Nazi Germany, they left the Nazis in charge, but made them all promise to be a "consensus meritocracy," would you expect them to change in any fundamental way? After all, it's not like the problem with the Nazi party was their internal divisions or their failure to get things done.

Their mishandling of covid, the millions who died as the result, and their preference to fall back on lies and propaganda rather than holding those accountable responsible, suggest the CCP still has a culture of death that puts the Chinese people last, and that all they learnt from Mao was how to get away with killing millions of people.

The CCP culture:

"Consensus" means we all agree that the CCP comes before the Chinese people and we must prevent the Chinese people from speaking the truth about the CCP, even if the CCP kills millions of Chinese people through lies and incompetence, and has to kill millions more to cover it up.

"Meritocracy" means the winner is whoever does the best job at silencing criticism of the CCP and putting a positive spin on the large pile of corpses that it leaves in it wake.

To be clear, consensus certainly does not mean everyone in the CPC agrees on policy. There are deep divisions within the CCP on policy, and they use internal democracy to resolve those differences without too much bloodshed. But they all agree they cannot let the Chinese people talk of democracy, so they call it consensus instead.
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« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2025 at 9:21am by freediver »  

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thegreatdivide
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #99 - Jul 27th, 2025 at 10:40am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 27th, 2025 at 9:01am:
Quote:
how much "internal change in culture" do you want?


Given that it rewarded the man who starved 50 million Chinese people to death by putting him back in power so he could start the killing again, quite a lot.


Your ability to argue rationally is obviously crippled by your blind individual "freedom values" ideology.

The CCP changed leaders and policies from Mao to Deng.

Quote:
Imagine if,.....


No thanks, anything you imagine will likely be false...and life is short....

Quote:
Their mishandling of covid, the millions who died as the result,


The US had higher per capita covid deaths.

Quote:
"Consensus" means we all agree that the CCP comes before the Chinese people and we must prevent the Chinese people from speaking the truth about the CCP, even if the CCP kills millions of Chinese people through lies and incompetence, and has to kill millions more to cover it up.


More crippled anaysis (see below)

Quote:
"Meritocracy" means ....


More garbage from a crippled "freedom values" brain, meritcracy means engagement of  people considered most capable in the relevany policy area, as oppsed to blind leading the blind democracy.

Quote:
To be clear, consensus certainly does not mean everyone in the CPC agrees on policy.


At last, a correct statement. 

The consensus is achieved by consideration of different views, and is subject to change, but not by 'democratic election' of blind-leading-the blind ignoramuses.

Quote:
There are deep divisions within the CCP on policy, and they use internal democracy to resolve those differences without too much bloodshed. But they all agree they cannot let the Chinese people talk of democracy, so they call it consensus instead.


The one-party system is the means of government in China. That's why China is pursuing various HK  (and Taiwanese) 'democracy' ideologues, who in effect are urging separation of HK from China. (Obviously a country needs one sovereign government).

Note: "the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) doesn't explicitly list "democracy" as a single, standalone human right...."

cf universal rights to housing (article 23) and above-poverty employment. (article 23)., both sadly lacking in the free market anglo-democracies at present.








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freediver
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #100 - Jul 29th, 2025 at 8:05pm
 
Quote:
The CCP changed leaders and policies from Mao to Deng.


But did it change it's culture? The question you keep avoiding.

Quote:
The US had higher per capita covid deaths.


Yes, this is a good example of the CCP covering up the deaths of millions of people with lies, just like it did under Mao with the Great Chinese Famine. It is a good example of the CCP putting the CCP first and the truth last, the welfare and the lives of the Chinese people last. 

Can you explain for us how the CCP kept a record of covid deaths at the same time as denying there was even an outbreak?
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #101 - Jul 30th, 2025 at 5:01pm
 
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #102 - Aug 12th, 2025 at 12:42pm
 
The Babylon Bee has compiled the following list of examples of how China is way better than living in America:

1  Zero global pandemics started in the last 4 years: Wow, 4 years in a row is impressive.

2  Total freedom of speech from within your 4x4 confinement cell: You can literally say anything you want in there. Very generous.

3.  There are a million places to learn Kung Fu: Everyone in China is a martial arts master.

4.  The government will harvest all your extra, unnecessary organs for free: Convenient.

5.  Gay characters are all edited out of movies: The way God intended it.

6.  The President is the most handsome fellow in the world and does not look anything like Winnie the Pooh: He looks like Robert Redford, only even more handsome. And he's so, so smart. Trump must be very jealous.

7. Nobody has to deal with the hassle of elections: Just watch the state-run news to find out who your new leaders are. Much more relaxing.

8.  They have gongs: You bang on them and they make a huge noise. Do you have a gong? Didn't think so.

9.  Slave labor keeps production costs super low: As long as you're ok being the slave.

10.Authentic Chinese food: Available to everyone with a social credit score of at least 5,000.
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Frank
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #103 - Feb 26th, 2026 at 9:03am
 
The key to this new book is that it takes the reader back into the decades before the Communist Party seized power, in 1949. That era is often depicted as a kind of heroic “Robin Hood” era of the party. It was no such thing. Dikotter shows us how destructive and murderous a force it was and how its ascent to national power was soaked in the blood of ordinary Chinese people and facilitated by Stalin’s funding and provision of arms.

The American Trotskyist Harold R. Isaacs (1910-1986) was a witness to the evolution of the Chinese communist movement in the 1930s. In 1938, he published a book called The Tragedy of the Chinese Revolution. He meant, at that point, Stalin’s direction of the Chinese communist movement from Moscow, leading to Chiang Kai-shek crushing the movement in 1927-33.

In a preface to a first revised edition of his book, in 1951, Isaacs wrote:

Between their defeat in China, in 1927, and their victory, in 1949, the Chinese Communists grew into a force capable only of imposing a new totalitarian dictatorship upon China. In the same interim, Russia, in that day still an adolescent tyranny, has grown into a totalitarian monster, imposing its great weight not only upon China but upon the whole world.

What Dikotter gives us, in Red Dawn Over China is the historical drama of that development playing out.

His book’s title seems to echo or rather respond to the famous Red Star Over China of Edgar Snow (1905-1972), also first published in 1938, which presented a highly influential image of Mao Zedong and his movement as social justice warriors of a philosophical and visionary nature. There were multiple subsequent editions, but when Snow died, in 1972, Mao was still alive and had caused repeated calamities in China. Snow remained an admirer of Mao’s.

Dikotter has been pushing back hard against the “Snow” job done by pro-Party sympathisers and propagandists for many decades. This begins with the fact that, in the immediate wake of winning the civil war, the communists launched a revolutionary terror campaign which took the lives of millions of people.

...

He emphatically underscores the reality that the history of three decades before 1949 bears very little resemblance to the version of it propagated by the Chinese communists and their fellow-travellers since the 1930s.

Three statements warrant excerpting here, as enticements to buy and read this book:

...what becomes abundantly clear in one document after another is how marginal the Communist Party was in the history of China from its foundation in 1921 to the end of the Second World War in 1945.

The Communists did not wait until victory in 1949 to expunge the record and control the narrative.

A whole range of alternative voices, including a rich tradition of democratic thought and practice that ran throughout republican China has been relegated to the shadows after 1949.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/culture/how-a-new-history-exposes-the-bloody-re...


All that monstrous tyranny BEFORE they even staged their coup, starved millions to death, had their Great Leap and wreaked havoc on their people.
...
https://www.hoover.org/research/red-dawn-over-china-how-communism-conquered-quar...
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thegreatdivide
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Re: China: little pinks see merit in 50 million dead
Reply #104 - Feb 26th, 2026 at 10:15am
 
Frank wrote on Feb 26th, 2026 at 9:03am:
...what becomes abundantly clear in one document after another is how marginal the Communist Party was in the history of China from its foundation in 1921 to the end of the Second World War in 1945.


Maybe so, but fast forward to the present:

Sky News.

'Quite bizarre’: Trump revealed as more disliked than Xi Jinping among Australians
24 February 2026 - 10:45AM


Sky News host Paul Murray discusses an opinion poll revealing Australians have a more negative view of US President Donald Trump than Chinese President Xi Jinping.

“An opinion poll, that Australians frankly have a more negative view of Donald Trump than they do of the Chinese President,” Mr Murray said.

“What does that tell us about where we get our information from and how little people care about what’s going on"


Do you happen to be working for Sky News, in an effort to reverse these "bizarre"  poll numbers? i
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