In conversation with John Anderson

https://johnanderson.net.au/conversations-zuby/




Listen before you react (he said hopefully).

A dopamine-fueled personality.

All over the place, stating the bloody obvious and mistaking it for original and/or deep insight.

Appeared somewhat disingenuous about his time at Oxford.

Even Anderson was bored with him towards the end.

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 1:26pm:

Not in the case of Zuby - he's overwhelmed with himself via a cult-of-personality wave.

Jordan Peterson's interviews, when he stays within the boundaries of his expertise, (clinical psychology), his podcasts are genuinely informative. When he strays into the metaphysical, he rants like a crazed monk (or a cult leader) and ends up in tears.

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:

I have heard considerable criticism of Peterson when he strays outside of clinical psychology, notably from the likes of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins with his theories on the 'metaphysical psychology' of religion.

Dawkins was particularly irritated by Peterson's overuse of the symbolism of entwined snakes and his entertaining the idea that humans had a notion of the DNA molecule (a priori?) since ancient times.

I am aware that he was roundly disliked by most of his peers at the University of Toronto - and not for 'woke' reasons. His rants at them, long before he took his stand against compelled speech, irritated and angered them. They were glad to see him gone.

A fellow psychologist he was interviewing suggested that he may have a schizotypal personality disorder - a suggestion, oddly, Peterson did not dispute.

Zuby's observation that humans will cede freedom for safety under certain conditions is banal. Maybe when he has children he will understand why that is the case.

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 3:03pm:
1/ Most people would rather be in the majority, than be right.
It's safer to choose to be with the majority, that's for sure. I don't know that people would be personally comfortable with knowing they are wrong for doing so.

2/ At least 20% of the population has strong authoritarian tendencies, which will emerge under the right conditions.
When people quote stats, where do they get them? Lies, damn lies and statistics?

3/ Fear of death is only rivalled by the fear of social disapproval. The latter could be stronger.
Yes, that's a common cliche. I wonder, though, if people would truly rather hear 'You have 3 months to live' as opposed to 'Nobody likes you'. A la: 'at least you have your health'. However, like the song says: 'Never knew there were worse things than dying'

4/ Propaganda is just as effective in the modern day as it was 100 years ago. Access to limitless information has not made the average person any wiser.
Propaganda has always been effective, while its effectively inarguable. The invention of the Gutenberg press is an example where access to information in the 16th century (i.e. easy access to the bible printed in the respective local languages), led to the protestant reformation and hundreds of years of sectarian Christo-religious wars. Maybe the sudden increase in access to information leads people initially to become enraged if they felt they've been lied to. I guess it's when propaganda fails that people act less wisely.

5/ Anything and everything can and will be politicised by the media, government, and those who trust them.
Yes. Always has been, always will be.

6/ Many politicians and large corporations will gladly sacrifice human lives if it is conducive to their political and financial aspirations.
Yes. Always have, always will. ‘Power grows from the barrel of a gun’ as Mao cynically reminded the post-WW2 world.

7/ Most people believe the government acts in the best interests of the people. Even many who are vocal critics of the government.
True. I guess.

8/ Once they have made up their mind, most people would rather to commit to being wrong, than admit they were wrong.
Very true.

9/ Humans can be trained and conditioned quickly and relatively easily to significantly alter their behaviours - for better or worse.
Is there any sentient being that can't be trained and conditioned quickly and relatively easily to significantly alter their behaviours - for better or worse?

10/ When sufficiently frightened, most people will not only accept authoritarianism, but demand it.
Yes. Relative to the extent of the fear. Think post-WW1 Germany. The Germans not only endured a humiliating defeat, but humiliating reparations, humiliating hyper-inflation and economic collapse, a collapse of social order and German culture and, long-forgotten but particularly relevant today, the devastation of a flu epidemic (which aided the rise of Nazism and its obsession with cleanliness).

11/ People who are dismissed as 'conspiracy theorists' are often well researched and simply ahead of the mainstream narrative.

Totally untrue, in my opinion. I believe conspiracy theorists are afflicted with a deep sense of paranoia and a deeper sense of a lack of control over their lives.

12/ Most people value safety and security more than freedom and liberty, even if said 'safety' is merely an illusion.
Hierarchy of needs, I guess. Few would sacrifice the well-being or lives of their children for freedom and liberty, which is why totalitarian is possible at least in the short to medium term.

13/ Hedonic adaptation occurs in both directions, and once inertia sets in, it is difficult to get people back to 'normal'.
‘Money won’t make you happy – but at least you’ll be miserable in comfort’? We’re not biologically wired to be eternally happy; we’re wired to solve problems and economise on bodily energy.

14/ A significant % of people thoroughly enjoy being subjugated.
‘A significant %’?

15/ 'The Science' has evolved into a secular pseudo-religion for millions of people in the West. This religion has little to do with science itself.
True, as evidenced by conspiracy theories (which, by the way, have likely existed since the dawn of humanity).

16/ Most people care more about looking like they are doing the right thing, rather than actually doing the right thing.
Very true. As someone once, albeit cynically, quipped ‘People love to cheer good over evil almost as much as they covertly like to commit evil’ – or at least fantasise over it.

17/ Politics, the media, science, and the healthcare industries are all corrupt, to varying degrees. Scientists and doctors can be bought as easily as politicians.
Too cynical. Human nature is predicated on lower-brain impulses which can manifest in, say, a mechanic, plumber, and lawnmower man, as much as anyone else.

18/ If you make people comfortable enough, they will not revolt. You can keep millions docile as you strip their rights, by giving them money, food, and entertainment.
Viva Aldous Huxley!

19/ Modern people are overly complacent and lack vigilance when it comes to defending their own freedoms from government overreach.
I guess.

John Smith wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 5:10pm:


Gee Mr tough guy Mafioso. What a great contribution you made, to a good discussion between Frank and MeisterEckhart.
Personally, I think you should STFU as usual and go count your gold coins at the Vatican for the God-Father.

Luckily we have two very nice Italian women on this Forum which make a far more convincing 'Political' input than you've ever hoped to achieve here for such a very long time.

Frank wrote on Nov 29^th, 2022 at 9:54pm:

I'm guessing you haven't watched Jordan Peterson's own podcasts on his Jordan B Peterson Youtube channel.

Dawkins, Harris, Krauz and others have publicly criticised him during interviews with Peterson and in interviews with others about Peterson.

Joe Rogan appears to have tired of him and was more confrontational during his last interview with him (where, bizarrely, Peterson turned up in what appeared to be a tuxedo) - Rogan later quipped, in an apparent reference to the likes of Peterson, that many Canadians are 'Californians on SSRIs'.

Patrick bet David, during his podcast interview, asked Peterson directly if he was suffering from psychological issues and also asked if he was back on medication, to which Peterson admitted he was but, given his blaming all his problems on the use of prescribed benzodiazepines, he did not want to discuss it further.

The so-called 'woke army' is not as critical of him as they once were as they now tend to ignore him.

Peterson's rants on Twitter (before his tweets about a transgender transitioner) to former colleagues at the University of Toronto read like he is unhinged as he attacked them with all the venom of a tantrum-throwing teenager.

His regular bursting into tears when he strays into metaphysical terrain - a common habit of his, (and promptly gets lost in the forest of his own thoughts), is disturbing enough alone.

Despite all this, he does have the attention of ultra-conservatives and media provocateurs - like Piers Morgan.

However, when he stays strictly within the boundaries of his expertise - clinical psychology - he is engaging and interesting.

He recently announced he is forming the 'Peterson Foundation' - let's see if he attempts to reinvent himself as a cult leader.