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The Thucydides trap (Read 751 times)
Frank
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The Thucydides trap
Oct 22nd, 2022 at 10:21am
 
With serried ranks of apparatchiks endorsing decisions at the Communist Party congress that leave China on a collision path with the West, the “Thucydides trap” is receiving greater attention than ever.

Of course, references to Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War are hardly new. Already in 2014 Xi Jinping had declared that “we all need to work together to avoid the Thucydides trap – destructive tensions between an emerging power and established powers”.

Since then, that call has become a crescendo, reaching a surely unsurpassable peak when Michael Keating and Jon Stanford, writing on these pages, warned that “Australia could provide the meat in the sandwich of the Thucydides trap”.
...
Brimming with the self-confidence that comes from rapid expansion (driven less by soaring intellect than by the lust for profit, kerdos, which Thucydides, unlike his contemporaries, did not deride), the Athenians breached the spirit, if not the letter, of their obligations under the peace treaty they had concluded with Sparta, while bullying smaller cities into becoming vassals, imposing economic sanctions on those that refused to submit.

Faced with Athens’ mounting belligerence, Sparta resisted calls from its allies to defend the peace; apprehensive of loss, and wary of war’s uncertainties, it remained cautious and conservative, thus encouraging the Athenians’ sense of invulnerability.

As the Corinthian ambassadors argued in castigating Sparta’s slowness and hesitation, “the Athenians dare beyond their power, run risks beyond their judgment, and in danger are full of good hope”; Sparta, on the other hand, “does less than is in her power, fails to accomplish even those things which judgment sanctions, and confronted with danger, expects the worst”.

Yet Pericles realised that, sooner or later, Athens’ policies were bound to lead to war. Wanting it to come in favourable circumstances for Athens, where it was better prepared than its enemy and could claim to be in the right, he pushed the Spartans to the point of no return.

Unfortunately, the outbreak of fighting only fuelled the Athenians’ intransigence. Drunk with pride, and convinced that might makes right, they hubristically told the hapless Melians “the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must”.

Then, underestimating the importance and solidity of alliances, and predicting that the Spartans would not honour costly commitments to distant friends, they recklessly attempted a naval invasion of Syracuse that destroyed their fleet and decimated their youth, opening the road to Athens’ downfall.

None of that implies Thucydides welcomed the war he dispassionately observed.

Calling it a “teacher of violence”, he described the suffering war inflicts as “meizo e kata dacrya” – “too great to be measured by tears”. And as its horrors stripped away the veneer of civilised morality, even the finest cities were swept into a vortex of chaos: individuals and states lost their ability to make things happen; instead, terrible things that they could never have predicted happened to them.

Seen in that light, the History is a sombre and sceptical work that, above power and ambition, advocates circumspection and self-doubt as the best stance toward a dangerous, dimly understood reality. Fear of poor judgment and of the gap that forever exists between what we can know now and what we will find out only later was, for Thucydides, the beginning of wisdom.

But it was never its end. A former Athenian general, Thucydides was a hard man, neck-deep in the human condition as it is, rather than as it could be. The strongest, he tells us in his rendition of Pericles’ final speech, are those whose mind is least bowed by misfortune and whose hands are the readiest to meet it. And to know life is to know that war is not just ineradicable but at times necessary – for other than the credible threat of violence, little can deter the bad from crushing the good.

As for victory, it goes to those who can combine an acute awareness of danger with the determination not to be cowed by it. Like the Spartan general Brasidas, whom Thucydides praises even more highly than Pericles, they alone can be prudent and measured without letting calculation impair their capacity for resolute action. They are, most of all, immune to “expensive hope” – mankind’s habit of “carelessly longing for what it desires, using sovereign reason to thrust aside what it does not fancy”.

That is the real Thucydides trap: the wishful thinking that so many of our China experts have long wallowed in about a future in which a bellicose China can be readily accommodated. Instead, Thucydides, who viscerally understood the tragedy of war, thought the only safety lay in confronting threats with unflinching honesty – “the loneliest of virtues”.

It is because he was so clear-eyed that his History has earned him “the praise that grows not old”; and it is that clarity which, so many centuries after he fought, thought and wrote, ensures that the weary Athenian general still towers above the epigones who, in taking his name, ignore his lessons.
Henry Ergas
http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.html
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Thucydides trap
Reply #1 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 11:06am
 
There's no doubt Xi Jinping has been told to roll the Chinese economy and aspirations back to the 90s, to avoid the Thucydidesian trap the CCP was rapidly blundering towards.

In exchange for that, he'll get to wear his plastic imperial Maoist crown without having his head lopped off for it.

The use of COVID lockdowns has been coopted to this end by snap-cooling the Chinese economy and the Chinese people's aspirations, which Xi declared would continue for the foreseeable future.

The English-language version of the 20th Party Congress PowerPoint summary presentation (translated and released by the CCP) says it all - cha bu duo-style.

    China will basically realize modernisation by 2035
    China will have basically completed new industrial informatisation
    China will have basically completed urbanisation
    China will have basically completed agricultural modernisation
    China will have basically achieved the goal of building a beautiful China
'Basically' is an English approximate translation for Chinese cha bu duo-speak.

What it provides the CCP is the 'almost' it needs to declare failure a success.

Also, what was conspicuously absent was talk of China overtaking the US in anything by any timeline.
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Frank
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Re: The Thucydides trap
Reply #2 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 1:06pm
 
Of course, references to Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War are hardly new. Already in 2014 Xi Jinping had declared that “we all need to work together to avoid the Thucydides trap – destructive tensions between an emerging power and established powers”.

Since then, that call has become a crescendo, reaching a surely unsurpassable peak when Michael Keating and Jon Stanford, writing on these pages, warned that “Australia could provide the meat in the sandwich of the Thucydides trap”.

What Thucydides would make of all that it is impossible to say. It is true that he hoped to produce a work that would be a possession for the ages – a “ktema es aei”. And it is also true that his History, with its intricate structure and complex language, can be read in many different ways.

But it is impossible to resist the conclusion that the interpretations being placed upon it bear little relation to his magnificent text.

Those interpretations build off a sentence in the History which, it is claimed, states that the war was primarily “caused” by Sparta’s fear of Athens’ growing power. From that, the inference is drawn that the real danger we face is not China but our fear of China, with the risk being that fear will unleash a cycle of action and reaction that culminates in war.

It is, however, highly questionable whether the term Thucydides uses, prophasis, means cause, at least in the modern, scientific, sense of the word; rather, in the Greek of Thucydides’ day, it meant the reason one would give, if pressed, for one’s actions.

To that extent, Thucydides is simply saying that Sparta’s fears of Athens’ hegemonic ambitions were a major reason it went to war. But what is even more important is that Thucydides nowhere suggests that the Spartans’ fears were irrational or that their decision – which eventually led to Sparta’s victory – was ill-considered.

On the contrary, the picture Thucydides paints, although contested by some modern historians of the war that raged from 431BC to 404BC, is clear. At its heart lies the contrast between Athenian arrogance and Sparta’s measured response.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/wishful-thinking-wont-alter-collision-course-with-china/news-story/0ea945e81a13d22a9d2da9c1d2a2b9e0

China is Athens - upcoming power with hegemonic ambitions- , the US Sparta if the Peloponesian War is to be viewed as instructive for our time. Except temperamentally the US is much more like Athens - open, free - and China is Spartan - regimented, dictatorial.

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MeisterEckhart
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Re: The Thucydides trap
Reply #3 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 1:48pm
 
Frank wrote on Oct 22nd, 2022 at 1:06pm:
At its heart lies the contrast between Athenian arrogance and Sparta’s measured response.

CCP cha bu duo-speak places China as on the eve of having achieved global hegemony and promoted to the Chinese people through its unfettered hyperbolic propaganda.

Xi knows better.

At the heart of Xi's winding back CCP ambition is the need to cool CCP arrogance vs the US's measured response to it, relative to what the US could do to China in the event that the US used even 50% of its conventional military superiority, thus avoiding China becoming a latter-day Athens in a modern Thucydidean trap - As the Russians are finding out to their great cost.
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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2022 at 1:54pm by MeisterEckhart »  
 
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Re: The Thucydides trap
Reply #4 - Oct 22nd, 2022 at 2:44pm
 


We witness, China continues to follow its hegemonic ambitions, in every area of contact with non-China [non-CCP] jurisdictions/actors.

And [with experience] we witness that no 'diplomatic' assurance China ever utters, is worth a damn.

China is dangerous because China is a [an intentionally] deceitful actor.



Do you remember when........


......just a few years ago, China began building 'national outposts' upon every unoccupied coral outcrop it could find, in the South China Sea ?

And when its neighbours and the U.S. expressed concerns with China's occupation of these 'coral outcrops' China quickly assured the world, that these occupations were wholly with peaceful intent.

And China 'loudly' stated, publicly, that these Chinese occupations, of 'coral outcrops' would NOT be militarised, by China.

And that declaration by the CCP, was an open lie.

We now know, that it was.


WWW search....
china promises not to militarise south china sea bases




And then there were the CCP assurances on Hong Kong self-governance, after 1997.

The agreement was.....
'One country, two systems.' [...for 50 years]

....and how long was it, before that 'aircraft' crashed in flames ???


.


China is dangerous.

And China is going to 'fall into' a dangerous conflict with other powers.

Why so ?

Principally, because China continues to project deceit in all of its interactions with other regional, and world powers.

And today still, at every opportunity, we can see that China continues to promulgate its 'diplomatic' deceits, as being 'reliable interactions'.

China [because of its blatant, 'diplomatic' deceit in its policies] is going to start [instigate] a serious conflict.

In just the same way, as Nazi Germany did, in 1939.




instigate = = bring about or initiate.



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Frank
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Re: The Thucydides trap
Reply #5 - Yesterday at 11:21am
 
In explaining Xi Jinping’s allusion to the Thucydides trap, Kate Lamb refers to Thucydides’ statement that “it was the rise of Athens and the fear that this instilled in Sparta that made war inevitable” (What is the Thucydides Trap and why did Xi Jinping mention it in his meeting with Donald Trump?, 15 May). That is the translation used by the Harvard political scientist Graham Allison, who popularised the phrase “Thucydides trap”, and who attributes the translation to Richard Crawley’s 1874 edition.

It is often said that Thucydides’ Greek is better translated as “the Athenians growing great and creating fear in the Spartans compelled them towards making war”. That is, Thucydides was speaking of a subjective impression of necessity on the Spartans’ part rather than claiming absolute necessity.


Less well-known is the fact that the translation Allison uses was introduced into Crawley’s edition in a revision by his nephew Richard Feetham in 1903, at the very time that the danger of “inevitable war” between Britain and Germany began to be seen as a threat. Thucydides’ history brings out how perceptions of necessity can be self-fulfilling.

It is to be hoped that Allison’s misleading reading of Thucydides can at least help modern politicians avoid his misnamed, but still all too real, trap better than their early 20th-century predecessors.
Tim Rood
St Hugh’s College, Oxford University

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Re: The Thucydides trap
Reply #6 - Yesterday at 7:30pm
 

Conflicts are so much easier to start,
than is a state of peace to secure, during a period of conflict.

Stating the obvious.


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