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Universal Basic Income (Read 3752 times)
FutureTheLeftWant
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Universal Basic Income
Oct 7th, 2022 at 8:56am
 
Who here is against a UBI? Why?  Productivity means we can make most things people need without most people working.  Our choice is a world where more and more people starve b/c there is no work or a brighter future where work is a choice.  The latter also doens't work for infinite growth, which is destroying the planet
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Frank
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #1 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:15am
 
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_...


The ‘capitalist road to communism’—Philippe Van Parijs
Some UBI proposals are unashamedly utopian. For example, Robert van der Veen and Philippe Van Parijs envisage a UBI as part of a much broader project of social transformation that ends with full communism and the abolition of alienated wage labour. In a 1986 paper, van der Veen and Van Parijs proposed that a basic income could be a step along ‘a capitalist road to communism.’ According to van Parijs and van der Veen, communism:

... is defined by the distribution principle “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” - which implies at least that the social product is distributed in such a way (1) that everyone's basic needs are adequately met, and (2) that each individual's share is entirely independent of his or her (freely provided) labor contribution.

Full communism is achieved when people’s contribution to production has no influence at all over the distribution. In this kind of society people freely choose the kind of work they do based on how intrinsically rewarding it is, rather than on how much it pays. In this way alienation is overcome.

According to this view, a UBI helps move society towards full communism by pushing up the price of intrinsically unrewarding work while making it possible for people to take low-paid work that they find rewarding. As American writer Peter Frase explains:

If you extrapolate this trend forward, you reach a situation where all wage labor is gradually eliminated. Undesirable work is fully automated, as employers feel increasing pressure to automate because labor is no longer too cheap. Meanwhile, the wage for desirable work eventually falls to zero, because people are both willing to do it for free, and able to do so due to the existence of a basic income to supply their essential needs.

... The long-run trajectory, therefore, is one in which people come to depend less and less on the basic income, because the things they want and need do not have to be purchased for money. Some things can be produced costlessly and automatically, as 3-D printing and digital copying technologies evolve into something like Star Trek’s replicator. Other things have become the product of voluntary cooperative activity, rather than waged work. It therefore comes to pass that the tax base for the basic income is undermined—but rather than a crisis, as in the hands of basic income critics, this becomes the path to utopia.
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FutureTheLeftWant
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #2 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:33am
 
Frank wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:15am:
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_...


The ‘capitalist road to communism’—Philippe Van Parijs
Some UBI proposals are unashamedly utopian. For example, Robert van der Veen and Philippe Van Parijs envisage a UBI as part of a much broader project of social transformation that ends with full communism and the abolition of alienated wage labour. In a 1986 paper, van der Veen and Van Parijs proposed that a basic income could be a step along ‘a capitalist road to communism.’ According to van Parijs and van der Veen, communism:

... is defined by the distribution principle “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” - which implies at least that the social product is distributed in such a way (1) that everyone's basic needs are adequately met, and (2) that each individual's share is entirely independent of his or her (freely provided) labor contribution.

Full communism is achieved when people’s contribution to production has no influence at all over the distribution. In this kind of society people freely choose the kind of work they do based on how intrinsically rewarding it is, rather than on how much it pays. In this way alienation is overcome.

According to this view, a UBI helps move society towards full communism by pushing up the price of intrinsically unrewarding work while making it possible for people to take low-paid work that they find rewarding. As American writer Peter Frase explains:

If you extrapolate this trend forward, you reach a situation where all wage labor is gradually eliminated. Undesirable work is fully automated, as employers feel increasing pressure to automate because labor is no longer too cheap. Meanwhile, the wage for desirable work eventually falls to zero, because people are both willing to do it for free, and able to do so due to the existence of a basic income to supply their essential needs.

... The long-run trajectory, therefore, is one in which people come to depend less and less on the basic income, because the things they want and need do not have to be purchased for money. Some things can be produced costlessly and automatically, as 3-D printing and digital copying technologies evolve into something like Star Trek’s replicator. Other things have become the product of voluntary cooperative activity, rather than waged work. It therefore comes to pass that the tax base for the basic income is undermined—but rather than a crisis, as in the hands of basic income critics, this becomes the path to utopia.


This isn't really the goal, no.  We would still have jobs, and people with jobs would still have more money
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Grappler Racist Filth
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #3 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:41am
 
That's the dole, isn't it?  You have to understand how economics actually works before coming at this idea.... forget the theories.... they haven't worked yet.
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FutureTheLeftWant
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #4 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:42am
 
Someone tell Grappy that UBI has been trialed in India and other places to great success.  I can't be bothered talking to the tnuc
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #5 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:51am
 
...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #6 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:52am
 
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:42am:
Someone tell Grappy that UBI has been trialed in India and other places to great success.  I can't be bothered talking to the tnuc


That's why India still has so many in poverty and/or in subsistence farming fighting off the asps ..... so easy...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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FutureTheLeftWant
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #7 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 10:55am
 
Do I keep ignoring Grappy or do I shame his ignorant BS on a thread I started? It's too easy, everyone can see he's an idiot.

Ignored
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:21am
 
Son - you are THE walking shame - you couldn't shame a dog turd mouldering on a footpath left by its ill-mannered owner.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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FutureTheLeftWant
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #9 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:26am
 
I mean, it is INTERESTING that this level of stalking and abuse is not against the forum rules when right wing trash do it?
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Belgarion
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #10 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:33am
 
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:26am:
I mean, it is INTERESTING that this level of stalking and abuse is not against the forum rules when right wing trash do it?


Your man-crush on Graps is obvious, but your desperate need for his approval is rather pathetic. Roll Eyes 
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FutureTheLeftWant
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #11 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:35am
 
Belgarion wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:33am:
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:26am:
I mean, it is INTERESTING that this level of stalking and abuse is not against the forum rules when right wing trash do it?


Your man-crush on Graps is obvious, but your desperate need for his approval is rather pathetic. Roll Eyes 


Because I ignore him? His crush on me is plain for all to see....
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #12 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:35am
 
Belgarion wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:33am:
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:26am:
I mean, it is INTERESTING that this level of stalking and abuse is not against the forum rules when right wing trash do it?


Your man-crush on graps is obvious, but your desperate need for his approval is rather pathetic. Roll Eyes 



Like a badly trained child he is happy to receive any attention he can get... it's what he's used to and he's co-dependent on abuse from seniors even when it is mild abuse compared to what his Nazi parents did to him... I blame those Belgians.... for his kind of problem it is but a step to building gas chambers for seniors...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #13 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:38am
 
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:35am:
Belgarion wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:33am:
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:26am:
I mean, it is INTERESTING that this level of stalking and abuse is not against the forum rules when right wing trash do it?


Your man-crush on Graps is obvious, but your desperate need for his approval is rather pathetic. Roll Eyes 


Because I ignore him? His crush on me is plain for all to see....


Why you is just flying in my shadow and catching my farts... but you're a big bruiser, you say - and imagine that intimidates people...... there are people around who could take you down badly in under two seconds... you do know that, don't you?  Just an infant throwing his weight around and needing to boast to prop up a failed ego.

I blame those Belgians for what they did to you..
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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FutureTheLeftWant
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Re: Universal Basic Income
Reply #14 - Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:38am
 
Belgarion wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:33am:
FutureTheLeftWant wrote on Oct 7th, 2022 at 11:26am:
I mean, it is INTERESTING that this level of stalking and abuse is not against the forum rules when right wing trash do it?


Your man-crush on Graps is obvious, but your desperate need for his approval is rather pathetic. Roll Eyes 


See? He constantly claims to be my 'master', posts about me all day and masturbates about nonsense like gas chambers.  He's deranged.....
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