Australian Politics Forum - Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins

Lisa Jones

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 39047
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1005 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:33am

Aussie wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 8:01pm:

1. There is only admissible evidence in a Trial, and

2. it is enough to sustain a conviction against Lehrmann. Whether he is convicted is up to the Jury.

1. There is also inadmissible evidence which may not comply with the strict rules of evidence but IF such evidence WAS admissible ...it could well change a jury's decision.

2. YOUR opinion is NOT shared by anyone else unfortunately.

Meantime you've not answered my earlier question (regarding the matter of an unfair trial wrt Chris Dawson).

Back to top

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

IP Logged

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #1006 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:34am Flip
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #1007 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:34am Flip
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #1008 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:35am Flip
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #1009 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:35am Flip
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 87750
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1010 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:37am

Aussie wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 7:07pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 6:59pm:

I'm simply bewildered by some of the things the girl did in the lead-up to this matter being fully handled by police.... getting rid of SMS and calls... the dress .....the non-existent medical tests ...

YTF would any real victim do any of that?

Now - for the record - I'm not saying and have never said that sexual activity either did or did not take place.... like EVERYONE else - I simply have no way of knowing or of even evaluating sufficient evidence to reach a reasonably reliable conclusion.

Amazing how some here have sought to place anyone with that clear neutral position as being on the side of the alleged rapist etc... just children who got out of their strait jackets...

Neutral, are you?

And...you keep ignoring the hot political environment, lead up to an election...including that this allegedly happened in a Minister's suite!

Absolutely neutral - entitled to ask such questions..... and as for the 'hot political environment' - so what? So Young Brittanny figured that if she made a fuss at that time her job may well fall along with the government?

Was that her personal evaluation of the situation? Or are you suggesting something else? How do you KNOW? Note that 'suggesting'..... we need to know, Aussie, not delve into the darkest realms of assumption and supposition... maybe in QUEENSLAND courts they get away with that - but down here the law requires provable facts, not assumptions, innuendoes, inferences, suggestions and vague interpretations of anyone's actions and state of mind..... FACTS, laddy... FACTS!!

It's taken long enough and hard enough to even begin to get the 'courts' to accept that they MUST only act on genuine, provable FACTS and not just their personal views ... and not all the rest including discrimination and assumptions of righteousness based on 'social class', job etc...

Surely a backwoods Queensland lawyer would know every in and out of those traditional court lies ...that is PRECISELY what the Abos complain about, with some justification - that the moment they arrive in a court, they are considered worthy of guilt and thus have zero chance ... and in some places, as you must well know, there still persists the attitude that 'any bloke new in town without a job' must be moved on by any means as untrustworthy and a potential criminal... something in which cops and courts actively still co-operate in the 21st Century in the Deep North (and elsewhere) (Lindy Chamberlain ring a bell?), which includes swathes of Queensland.

Surely as a lawyer you cannot deny all those persist in Rednecksville...

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 87750
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1011 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 10:23am

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:33am:

Aussie wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 8:01pm:

1. There is only admissible evidence in a Trial, and

2. it is enough to sustain a conviction against Lehrmann. Whether he is convicted is up to the Jury.

1. There is also inadmissible evidence which may not comply with the strict rules of evidence but IF such evidence WAS admissible ...it could well change a jury's decision.

2. YOUR opinion is NOT shared by anyone else unfortunately.

Meantime you've not answered my earlier question (regarding the matter of an unfair trial wrt Chris Dawson).

Chris Dawson - I'm convinced 'e done it ... but I can't prove it....

Pointing out the defendant in the court room and denouncing him is not evidence... it is pure Hollywood and clearly done on the instructions of the special interest lawyers on Brittany's side as an attempt to sway a jury where the evidence is thin to say the least.... and it was rehearsed!!

This 'trial' has already been tainted enough by the antics of public figures who have no way, any more than anyone else who was not there, of knowing what actually happened.

You may NOT assume that the manner of giving evidence itself substitutes for evidence.... many a politician is convincing in his/her presentation and comes across as convinced and convincing - does that make their policies and ideas any more acceptable?

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 39245
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1012 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 3:28pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:33am:

[quote author=Aussie link=1664855901/1002#1002 date=1668765662]

1. There is only admissible evidence in a Trial, and

2. it is enough to sustain a conviction against Lehrmann. Whether he is convicted is up to the Jury.

Quote:

1. There is also inadmissible evidence which may not comply with the strict rules of evidence but IF such evidence WAS admissible ...it could well change a jury's decision.

Indeed, including that Lehrmann has form for exactly this. Inadmissible at the 'Higgins' trial.

Quote:

2. YOUR opinion is NOT shared by anyone else unfortunately.

Meantime you've not answered my earlier question (regarding the matter of an unfair trial wrt Chris Dawson).

Not once in my life have I ever given a flying fuq about anyone else's opinion if I was satisfied with my own.

Dawson.......I am sure he got a fair trial. Bit curious that he was convicted without any body being unearthed, but the Jury were entitled to come to the conclusion they did....even in the absence of a corpse.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2022 at 6:51pm by Aussie »

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 39245
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1013 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 3:40pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:37am:

Aussie wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 7:07pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 6:59pm:

I'm simply bewildered by some of the things the girl did in the lead-up to this matter being fully handled by police.... getting rid of SMS and calls... the dress .....the non-existent medical tests ...

YTF would any real victim do any of that?

Now - for the record - I'm not saying and have never said that sexual activity either did or did not take place.... like EVERYONE else - I simply have no way of knowing or of even evaluating sufficient evidence to reach a reasonably reliable conclusion.

Amazing how some here have sought to place anyone with that clear neutral position as being on the side of the alleged rapist etc... just children who got out of their strait jackets...

Neutral, are you?

And...you keep ignoring the hot political environment, lead up to an election...including that this allegedly happened in a Minister's suite!

Absolutely neutral - entitled to ask such questions..... and as for the 'hot political environment' - so what? So Young Brittanny figured that if she made a fuss at that time her job may well fall along with the government?

Was that her personal evaluation of the situation? Or are you suggesting something else? How do you KNOW? Note that 'suggesting'..... we need to know, Aussie, not delve into the darkest realms of assumption and supposition... maybe in QUEENSLAND courts they get away with that - but down here the law requires provable facts, not assumptions, innuendoes, inferences, suggestions and vague interpretations of anyone's actions and state of mind..... FACTS, laddy... FACTS!!

It's taken long enough and hard enough to even begin to get the 'courts' to accept that they MUST only act on genuine, provable FACTS and not just their personal views ... and not all the rest including discrimination and assumptions of righteousness based on 'social class', job etc...

Surely a backwoods Queensland lawyer would know every in and out of those traditional court lies ...that is PRECISELY what the Abos complain about, with some justification - that the moment they arrive in a court, they are considered worthy of guilt and thus have zero chance ... and in some places, as you must well know, there still persists the attitude that 'any bloke new in town without a job' must be moved on by any means as untrustworthy and a potential criminal... something in which cops and courts actively still co-operate in the 21st Century in the Deep North (and elsewhere) (Lindy Chamberlain ring a bell?), which includes swathes of Queensland.

Surely as a lawyer you cannot deny all those persist in Rednecksville...

This Lawyer, not a backwoods one, was the inaugural Lawyer retained by ATSILS in Rockhampton in 1974, so I do not need a moron to tell me about how the justice system dealt with my clients....until I came along there.

Your reference to being 'moved along' reminded me of a true story.

Rockhampton Magistrate Ted Loane, and father of Aussie Wallaby Mark Loane, was a great bloke.

Just about every morning, one of my clients was the town vagrant, an aboriginal. Cops took him into custody as a vagrant for his own protection, and every working day, this bloke was first cab off the rank in Court.

Everyone played their circus role, including Ted and my bloke always got a fine and no time to pay, so off to the watch-house he was taken.

Then, I'd be in Ted's Chambers for a morning break generally chatting and his Clerk came in, and announced to Ted's obvious annoyance and then a grin, and my guffaw, that 'Yes, Your Worship, I have paid the vagrant's fine as usual from your account, and he has been released.' And on it went......

Try not to tell Grandma how to suck eggs, Grappler.

Back to top

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 39245
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1014 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 3:45pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 10:23am:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:33am:

Aussie wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 8:01pm:

1. There is only admissible evidence in a Trial, and

2. it is enough to sustain a conviction against Lehrmann. Whether he is convicted is up to the Jury.

1. There is also inadmissible evidence which may not comply with the strict rules of evidence but IF such evidence WAS admissible ...it could well change a jury's decision.

2. YOUR opinion is NOT shared by anyone else unfortunately.

Meantime you've not answered my earlier question (regarding the matter of an unfair trial wrt Chris Dawson).

Chris Dawson - I'm convinced 'e done it ... but I can't prove it....

Pointing out the defendant in the court room and denouncing him is not evidence... it is pure Hollywood and clearly done on the instructions of the special interest lawyers on Brittany's side as an attempt to sway a jury where the evidence is thin to say the least.... and it was rehearsed!!

This 'trial' has already been tainted enough by the antics of public figures who have no way, any more than anyone else who was not there, of knowing what actually happened.

You may NOT assume that the manner of giving evidence itself substitutes for evidence.... many a politician is convincing in his/her presentation and comes across as convinced and convincing - does that make their policies and ideas any more acceptable?

A Jury is entitled to consider the 'victim's' evidence and how they handled cross-examine. They may conclude beyond reasonable doubt she is honest and then...they might look to see how the accused handles the same ordeal.

Oh...what if the accused elects not to give evidence as is his right?????

The Jury are left with their conclusion that the 'victim' is telling the truth. Conviction.

Like I said, a decision not to give evidence does have logical consequences.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 87750
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1015 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 5:17pm

The 5th-16th Century Lord Chancellor, Sir Thomas More, was condemned on the sole word of 'a person of standing in the community'... and it took several hundreds of years to remove that fallacy from the usage of law.

Now there is a movement afoot to restore that fallacy to favour complainants IF they belong to a specific demographic, i.e. are the new 'persons of standing in the community'.

In Australia, of course, it has long been the practice in many jurisdictions to follow that fallacy, and to permit often absurd claims by an accuser to pass while any genuine claim by the accused is overlooked. The police as accuser have been the prime beneficiaries of this, as anyone well knows, and it has taken repeated Royal Commissions to even begin to bring about meaningful change.

No way could anyone who says he is a backwoods Queensland lawyer say that never existed and does not still exist at times even now. Notwithstanding - it is a savagely retrograde step to accord to ANY individual or social group any right to be unconditionally believed and their version of events accepted.... as in Women - the New Ayatollahs who are beyond reproach.

Beyond there be dragons...... and never touch the crosses.... NEVER!

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 39245
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1016 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 5:55pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 5:17pm:

The 5th-16th Century Lord Chancellor, Sir Thomas More, was condemned on the sole word of 'a person of standing in the community'... and it took several hundreds of years to remove that fallacy from the usage of law.

Now there is a movement afoot to restore that fallacy to favour complainants IF they belong to a specific demographic, i.e. are the new 'persons of standing in the community'.

In Australia, of course, it has long been the practice in many jurisdictions to follow that fallacy, and to permit often absurd claims by an accuser to pass while any genuine claim by the accused is overlooked. The police as accuser have been the prime beneficiaries of this, as anyone well knows, and it has taken repeated Royal Commissions to even begin to bring about meaningful change.

No way could anyone who says he is a backwoods Queensland lawyer say that never existed and does not still exist at times even now. Notwithstanding - it is a savagely retrograde step to accord to ANY individual or social group any right to be unconditionally believed and their version of events accepted.... as in Women - the New Ayatollahs who are beyond reproach.

Beyond there be dragons...... and never touch the crosses.... NEVER!

Where???????

Back to top

IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 87750 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins Reply #1017 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 7:02pm I cannot make you see when you choose to be blind.... Nah then - what is this 'form' of Lehrmann's?
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 39245
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1018 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 7:17pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 7:02pm:

I cannot make you see when you choose to be blind....

So...you can't show me anything to back up your wild assertion of "Now there is a movement afoot to restore that fallacy to favour complainants."

Quote:

Nah then - what is this 'form' of Lehrmann's?

He has 'form' for this 'Higgins' sort of conduct. Ya see, Grappler, I actually read stuff and I do so very early and keep abreast of developments as they occur, and I see when stuff drop off the www.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 87750
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Trial of Brittany Higgins's alleged rapist begins
Reply #1019 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 7:28pm

Aussie wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 3:40pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:37am:

Aussie wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 7:07pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Nov 18^th, 2022 at 6:59pm:

I'm simply bewildered by some of the things the girl did in the lead-up to this matter being fully handled by police.... getting rid of SMS and calls... the dress .....the non-existent medical tests ...

YTF would any real victim do any of that?

Now - for the record - I'm not saying and have never said that sexual activity either did or did not take place.... like EVERYONE else - I simply have no way of knowing or of even evaluating sufficient evidence to reach a reasonably reliable conclusion.

Amazing how some here have sought to place anyone with that clear neutral position as being on the side of the alleged rapist etc... just children who got out of their strait jackets...

Neutral, are you?

And...you keep ignoring the hot political environment, lead up to an election...including that this allegedly happened in a Minister's suite!

Absolutely neutral - entitled to ask such questions..... and as for the 'hot political environment' - so what? So Young Brittanny figured that if she made a fuss at that time her job may well fall along with the government?

Was that her personal evaluation of the situation? Or are you suggesting something else? How do you KNOW? Note that 'suggesting'..... we need to know, Aussie, not delve into the darkest realms of assumption and supposition... maybe in QUEENSLAND courts they get away with that - but down here the law requires provable facts, not assumptions, innuendoes, inferences, suggestions and vague interpretations of anyone's actions and state of mind..... FACTS, laddy... FACTS!!

It's taken long enough and hard enough to even begin to get the 'courts' to accept that they MUST only act on genuine, provable FACTS and not just their personal views ... and not all the rest including discrimination and assumptions of righteousness based on 'social class', job etc...

Surely a backwoods Queensland lawyer would know every in and out of those traditional court lies ...that is PRECISELY what the Abos complain about, with some justification - that the moment they arrive in a court, they are considered worthy of guilt and thus have zero chance ... and in some places, as you must well know, there still persists the attitude that 'any bloke new in town without a job' must be moved on by any means as untrustworthy and a potential criminal... something in which cops and courts actively still co-operate in the 21st Century in the Deep North (and elsewhere) (Lindy Chamberlain ring a bell?), which includes swathes of Queensland.

Surely as a lawyer you cannot deny all those persist in Rednecksville...

This Lawyer, not a backwoods one, was the inaugural Lawyer retained by ATSILS in Rockhampton in 1974, so I do not need a moron to tell me about how the justice system dealt with my clients....until I came along there.

Your reference to being 'moved along' reminded me of a true story.

Rockhampton Magistrate Ted Loane, and father of Aussie Wallaby Mark Loane, was a great bloke.

Just about every morning, one of my clients was the town vagrant, an aboriginal. Cops took him into custody as a vagrant for his own protection, and every working day, this bloke was first cab off the rank in Court.

Everyone played their circus role, including Ted and my bloke always got a fine and no time to pay, so off to the watch-house he was taken.

Then, I'd be in Ted's Chambers for a morning break generally chatting and his Clerk came in, and announced to Ted's obvious annoyance and then a grin, and my guffaw, that 'Yes, Your Worship, I have paid the vagrant's fine as usual from your account, and he has been released.' And on it went......

Try not to tell Grandma how to suck eggs, Grappler.

Rocky, huh? Pretty backwoods.......

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Poll
Question: Will there be a conviction?
Yes 3 (14.3%) No 17 (81.0%) Not sure 1 (4.8%) Total votes: 21 « Created by: Lisa Jones on: Oct 22^nd, 2022 at 7:49am »