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Poll closed Poll
Question: Will the referendum be voted in?
*** This poll has now closed ***


No    
  42 (75.0%)
Yes    
  14 (25.0%)




Total votes: 56
« Last Modified by: Redmond Neck on: Feb 25th, 2023 at 11:17am »

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The Aboriginal Voice referendum (Read 112685 times)
Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #525 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:09pm
 
There is a job guarantee already for Aborigines.

All they need to do is make sure they children are fed, go to school, have a safe home, get a qualification, develop a work ethic and turn up for the job on time, carry it out as expected and repeat 5 days a week. Like everyone else.

No government or Voice can assume responsibility for the feeding, care, schooling, moral development of Aborigines, only they themselves can do that. Like everyone else.



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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #526 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:24pm
 
Somers Trail wrote on Jan 8th, 2023 at 7:16pm:
the reparations idea being floated might not go down too well in the suburbs or rural and regional Australia. Being told that a group of people are to get fistfuls of free cash because of something long dead people did to*other* long dead people might not play that well with Struggle Street who may see it as a betrayal.


Agree. What's needed now is the recognition on both sides of the right to fair employment, and the responsibility to participate commensurate with one's abilities.   

A cash windfall ("reparations" )will be like a lottery win - it often gets pissed against a wall.
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Captain Caveman
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #527 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:27pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 8th, 2023 at 4:07pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 8th, 2023 at 3:56pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 8th, 2023 at 10:26am:
Frank wrote on Jan 6th, 2023 at 4:56pm:
Architects of the Indigenous Voice are struggling to provide the transparency asked for. I’ll start you off:

“The Parliamentary Voice will be different from the dominant failed Indigenous voices that have been present for many decades in that it will ….”

Now fill in the blanks.
Anthony Dillon.


....."it will recommend a Job Guarantee".

Any takers?

Noel Pearson is on board.

Admittedly, payment for work is not part of the stone-age aboriginal hunter-gatherer culture, so Pearson must have in mind bringing aboriginals, but not their culture, into the 21st century.

They have it already.


er....

https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/indigenous-employment

Comparing the most recent data for people (all Australians)  aged 15–64 with earlier surveys:

between 2007–08 and 2018–19, the overall employment rate for Indigenous Australians dropped from 54% to 49%, while the rate for non-Indigenous Australians remained stable at roughly 76% (Figure 1)


in the 2017–18 to 2018–19 period, the overall gap in employment rates between Indigenous Australians and non-Indigenous Australians was 27 percentage points (Figure 1)  (49 +27 = 76)

If the employment trends presented on this page are adjusted for the effect of changes and closure of the Community Development Employment Projects (CDEP) scheme, then the employment rate for Indigenous Australians remained stable over the 2008 to 2018–19 period at around 49% (SCRGSP 2020).


ie, in 2007 some CDEP schemes still in operation resulted in the higher black employment rates of 54% in 2007.

A Job Guarantee will gradually eliminate the employment gap, currently "27 percentage points".








Were they even trying to get a job to begin with?
You have to actually be actively looking for employment to become employed you know.
Then,
Of these aboriginal job seekers, how many were applying day in day out and being rejected constantly?
How many just gave up?
How many got a job and within the month, given up?

Your figures are like that because the average abo doesn't want to work.
They'll just sit and be/do nothing.
You can't blame another race of human for that.
You know how I know this.
I've worked with abos champ. Good hard working ones that have made it like I have.
Anyone can do it.
It ain't rocket science, and it ain't up to everyone else to sacrafice anything so some lazy fukkk can be counted.




Just saying "garrantee them a job" is bullshyte.
You obviously have never owned your own business.
You know you could knock up a mechanics workshop in a remote area tomorrow if you like. Farrk, build a football stadium if you want.
It's got to make money on its own to survive, or do you expect us, the tax payer, to chip into the business and keep it going like a participation award? It's starting to sound like a virgin Airlines adventure.



Want a solution?
Move your buddies out of the remote areas.
That's right. You heard.
They need to be in close proximity to education. Like we all farrking do.
FFS, people fly here from other countries to our populated areas where education is available, so your mates can move into town for a while. We all have to do things we don't want to from time to time if we want to excel in life.

Now they're here, get them off to tafe and get the 3 R's going. (why is it 3 Rs when the second one starts with W and the last one starts with A?)  who cares, get them edumacated.

Now it's off to cold canvas/pound the pavement, head into employment agencies, ring around, get a job.
Now work that job and pay for all the shyte you want.
If the job pays peanuts, upskill yourself, surround yourself with those people in the career path you want to go down.
That's what we all have to do if we want to participate.


That's how you'll close the gap bud.
All this other shyte you speak of is "poor me" economics.
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miketrees
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #528 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:29pm
 
I cant see voting in racism as a cure for racism.

I will be voting NO
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #529 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:33pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:09pm:
There is a job guarantee already for Aborigines.


You are contradicting yourself; you already asserted 50% are "unemployable" - which is wrong, anyone can be trained for work commensurate with their abilities.


Quote:
All they need to do is make sure they children are fed, go to school, have a safe home, get a qualification, develop a work ethic and turn up for the job on time, carry it out as expected and repeat 5 days a week. Like everyone else.


Er.... there are over a million non-black long-term unemployed Australians who can't achieved that, in the competitive private sector neoliberal market. 

Quote:
No government or Voice can assume responsibility for the feeding, care, schooling, moral development of Aborigines, only they themselves can do that. Like everyone else.


But every government should assume responsibility for ensuring everyone can participate in above-poverty employment




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Frank
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #530 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:43pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:33pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:09pm:
There is a job guarantee already for Aborigines.


You are contradicting yourself; you already asserted 50% are "unemployable" - which is wrong, anyone can be trained for work commensurate with their abilities.


Quote:
All they need to do is make sure they children are fed, go to school, have a safe home, get a qualification, develop a work ethic and turn up for the job on time, carry it out as expected and repeat 5 days a week. Like everyone else.


Er.... there are over a million non-black long-term unemployed Australians who can't achieved that, in the competitive private sector neoliberal market. 

Quote:
No government or Voice can assume responsibility for the feeding, care, schooling, moral development of Aborigines, only they themselves can do that. Like everyone else.


But every government should assume responsibility for ensuring everyone can participate in above-poverty employment


The unemployable won't, no matter what you parrot.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #531 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:45pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 1:16pm:
Graps says lock 'em up, either in prison or on special reserves where they can be hunter-gatherers again...and/or subsist on the dole...



Quite wrong interpretation - I merely offer them the opportunity that some of them are baying for - to go and do things their own way without any input from The White Man's Way that they claim to despise so much.  Purely their choice - the other part - of imprisoning them - is entirely up to them and their own actions... but it is a poor message to send to them that doing disgraceful and often terrible things to others will not carry sanctions.... is that really the kind of world you want to live in?

You see - I'm more of an anarchist than anything else... and far more left than even you in reality since I am a river to the people as a whole, not just a schill for some preferred groups..... but there is responsible anarchy - a product of one's own personal sovereignty and choices - and there is irresponsible anarchy - same deal but with very negative choice-making apparatus....

Just because a person is a responsible anarchist doesn't mean he/she will just romp all over others and their rights etc - you CHOOSE not to impinge and intrude upon the rights of others -whereas the irresponsible anarchist needs to be trained and re-educated into doing what is simply right.

As an aside - always be wary of thinking that a responsible anarchist is soft and easy prey... the Warrior Poet lives, and it is never wise to touch the crosses of anyone.

Hmm - sixty fires so far across northern NSW.... the brushfire war continues....

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« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2023 at 6:36pm by Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM »  

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #532 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 6:04pm
 
Captain Caveman wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:27pm:
Were they even trying to get a job to begin with?
and You have to actually be actively looking for employment to become employed you know.


The egregious level of family dysfunction is a barrier to getting a job (and going to school in the first place). 

And actively looking doesn't mean landing a job.


Quote:
Then,
Of these aboriginal job seekers, how many were applying day in day out and being rejected constantly?
How many just gave up?
How many got a job and within the month, given up?


Questions which ignore the reality of community and family dysfunction in many Aboriginal  communities. 

Quote:
Your figures are like that because the average abo doesn't want to work.
They'll just sit and be/do nothing.
You can't blame another race of human for that.


It's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of the nation's responsibility to clean up the mess after we "smashed their ancient culture" (as Paul Keating rightly observed); it had to happen of course, part of the long chaotic and often violent journey toward an advanced human civilization on this planet. 

Quote:
You know how I know this.
I've worked with abos champ. Good hard working ones that have made it like I have.
Anyone can do it.
It ain't rocket science, and it ain't up to everyone else to sacrafice anything so some lazy fukkk can be counted.


50% are currently NOT "doing it", for reasons addressed above.

Quote:
Just saying "garrantee them a job" is bullshyte.
You obviously have never owned your own business.
You know you could knock up a mechanics workshop in a remote area tomorrow if you like. Farrk, build a football stadium if you want.
It's got to make money on its own to survive, or do you expect us, the tax payer, to chip into the business and keep it going like a participation award? It's starting to sound like a virgin Airlines adventure.


You will need to learn that the public sector acting as employer of last resort in the non-competitive 'caring' sector,  doesn't need your money to ensure everyone can participate in the economy: a sovereign currency issuing government can issue it's own money so long as the nation's productivity can support the extra spending in the economy.

Quote:
Want a solution?
Move your buddies out of the remote areas.
That's right. You heard.
They need to be in close proximity to education. Like we all farrking do.
FFS, people fly here from other countries to our populated areas where education is available, so your mates can move into town for a while. We all have to do things we don't want to from time to time if we want to excel in life.


er..we already have a housing problem in many towns and cities

Quote:
Now they're here, get them off to tafe and get the 3 R's going. (why is it 3 Rs when the second one starts with W and the last one starts with A?)  who cares, get them edumacated.


Er.... the last 3 decades of neoliberal governments have emasculated TAFE....

Quote:
Now it's off to cold canvas/pound the pavement, head into employment agencies, ring around, get a job.
Now work that job and pay for all the shyte you want.
If the job pays peanuts, upskill yourself, surround yourself with those people in the career path you want to go down.
That's what we all have to do if we want to participate.


That's how you'll close the gap bud.
All this other shyte you speak of is "poor me" economics.


Refuted above.

in fact, neoliberal economics causes ""poor me" economics". There is no reason for ANY unemployment in a country as rich in resources as Oz.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #533 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 6:07pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:43pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:33pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:09pm:
There is a job guarantee already for Aborigines.


You are contradicting yourself; you already asserted 50% are "unemployable" - which is wrong, anyone can be trained for work commensurate with their abilities.


Quote:
All they need to do is make sure they children are fed, go to school, have a safe home, get a qualification, develop a work ethic and turn up for the job on time, carry it out as expected and repeat 5 days a week. Like everyone else.


Er.... there are over a million non-black long-term unemployed Australians who can't achieved that, in the competitive private sector neoliberal market. 

Quote:
No government or Voice can assume responsibility for the feeding, care, schooling, moral development of Aborigines, only they themselves can do that. Like everyone else.


But every government should assume responsibility for ensuring everyone can participate in above-poverty employment


The unemployable won't, no matter what you parrot.


Dillon won't be pleased with your "50% unemployable" assertion.
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Captain Caveman
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #534 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 6:21pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 6:04pm:
Captain Caveman wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 5:27pm:
Were they even trying to get a job to begin with?
and You have to actually be actively looking for employment to become employed you know.


The egregious level of family dysfunction is a barrier to getting a job (and going to school in the first place). 

And actively looking doesn't mean landing a job.


Quote:
Then,
Of these aboriginal job seekers, how many were applying day in day out and being rejected constantly?
How many just gave up?
How many got a job and within the month, given up?


Questions which ignore the reality of community and family dysfunction in many Aboriginal  communities. 

Quote:
Your figures are like that because the average abo doesn't want to work.
They'll just sit and be/do nothing.
You can't blame another race of human for that.


It's not a matter of blame, it's a matter of the nation's responsibility to clean up the mess after we "smashed their ancient culture" (as Paul Keating rightly observed); it had to happen of course, part of the long chaotic and often violent journey toward an advanced human civilization on this planet. 

Quote:
You know how I know this.
I've worked with abos champ. Good hard working ones that have made it like I have.
Anyone can do it.
It ain't rocket science, and it ain't up to everyone else to sacrafice anything so some lazy fukkk can be counted.


50% are currently NOT "doing it", for reasons addressed above.

Quote:
Just saying "garrantee them a job" is bullshyte.
You obviously have never owned your own business.
You know you could knock up a mechanics workshop in a remote area tomorrow if you like. Farrk, build a football stadium if you want.
It's got to make money on its own to survive, or do you expect us, the tax payer, to chip into the business and keep it going like a participation award? It's starting to sound like a virgin Airlines adventure.


You will need to learn that the public sector acting as employer of last resort in the non-competitive 'caring' sector,  doesn't need your money to ensure everyone can participate in the economy: a sovereign currency issuing government can issue it's own money so long as the nation's productivity can support the extra spending in the economy.

Quote:
Want a solution?
Move your buddies out of the remote areas.
That's right. You heard.
They need to be in close proximity to education. Like we all farrking do.
FFS, people fly here from other countries to our populated areas where education is available, so your mates can move into town for a while. We all have to do things we don't want to from time to time if we want to excel in life.


er..we already have a housing problem in many towns and cities

Quote:
Now they're here, get them off to tafe and get the 3 R's going. (why is it 3 Rs when the second one starts with W and the last one starts with A?)  who cares, get them edumacated.


Er.... the last 3 decades of neoliberal governments have emasculated TAFE....

Quote:
Now it's off to cold canvas/pound the pavement, head into employment agencies, ring around, get a job.
Now work that job and pay for all the shyte you want.
If the job pays peanuts, upskill yourself, surround yourself with those people in the career path you want to go down.
That's what we all have to do if we want to participate.


That's how you'll close the gap bud.
All this other shyte you speak of is "poor me" economics.


Refuted above.

in fact, neoliberal economics causes ""poor me" economics". There is no reason for ANY unemployment in a country as rich in resources as Oz.



I smashed nothing of theirs. You may well have but I did not. Neither did my immediate family, and we will not be guilt tripped into thinking we did.
I have no responsibility for anyone other than my family, as they do theirs.
Its called, breaking the cycle.
I did it, so can they.
I know many that have.


What gets me is why don't you, and those like minded to you, actually get off your arse and make the effort to do something about this rather than try and guilt trip others into doing it for you.
I don't want my taxes going to this rubbish.
I'd rather look after those that have already given their life to this country and are struggling now because of a traitorous corporate government that is bending them over a barrel.


You have a choice.... We all do.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #535 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 8:29pm
 
It sounds as though most of you hate the fact that Aboriginals have a voice- but they do- sorry!!
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #536 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 8:59pm
 
Well - actually the voice they currently have is discriminatory, apartheidist, and frankly racist... nobody else has the same voice.... no hate needed..... just stating simple facts.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #537 - Jan 13th, 2023 at 8:59pm
 
Agnes. wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 8:29pm:
It sounds as though most of you hate the fact that Aboriginals have a voice- but they do- sorry!!


Yes - you should apologise on their behalf for having so many voices already that nobody else has.  Much appreciated...
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #538 - Jan 14th, 2023 at 10:47am
 
Captain Caveman wrote on Jan 13th, 2023 at 6:21pm:
I smashed nothing of theirs. You may well have but I did not. Neither did my immediate family, and we will not be guilt tripped into thinking we did.


Our forbears smashed their ancient culture., and that means we all now, as a nation, have a responsibility to assist the survivors to adapt to the modern world. 

Quote:
I have no responsibility for anyone other than my family, as they do theirs.
Its called, breaking the cycle.
I did it, so can they.
I know many that have.


As a matter of fact you have civic responsibilities, eg to obey the law.


Quote:
What gets me is why don't you, and those like minded to you, actually get off your arse and make the effort to do something about this rather than try and guilt trip others into doing it for you.


I agree with Anthony Dillon:

"....develop policies and programs for Indigenous Australians that ensure they have the opportunity to live in safe and clean environments, have access to modern services and quality education, posses those skills that make them employable, and have ready access to jobs, in order to thrive. These are the same needs other Australians have, which, when met, enable them to thrive."

The question is not if, but how.

Quote:
I don't want my taxes going to this rubbish.
I'd rather look after those that have already given their life to this country and are struggling now because of a traitorous corporate government that is bending them over a barrel.


Ah -  the old conservative "how ya gonna pay for it" refrain.

But at least you acknowledge something is wrong with the system  ...."traitorous corporate government", how/what do you propose to change this? 

Quote:
You have a choice.... We all do.


Indeed, and the nation must choose to close the gap.
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Re: The Aboriginal Voice referendum
Reply #539 - Jan 14th, 2023 at 10:47am
 
>
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