Australian Politics Forum - The question about a voice will be asked...

thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #795 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 4:19pm

Gnads wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:16pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 12:50am:

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 7:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 5:34pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 3:59pm:

Quote:

High enough to fund common prosperity.

Do your words have any genuine meaning at all? Or do you just sprout banal CCP propaganda?

The term "common prosperity" offends you?

OK, I'll replace it with the term "general welfare", a term used in the preamble to the US constitution......

So now my post reads:

High enough to fund the general welfare.

But as Gareth Hutchens has observed: the neoliberal toad Philip Lowe should be exposed for pitting taxpayers against taxpayers ...with the most powerful group invariably winning....

...because Lowe can fund public policies himself (up to a limit defined by the nation's productive capacity, of course).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-24/rba-review-will-it-consider-how-money-is-...

It's the last taboo in central banking. So will the RBA review look at how money is created?

I meant, how high would you want taxes to go? The government currently takes about 28% of GDP.

Well....Scandinavia taxes at c.45%of GDP - and is a happier society than Oz.......since taxes there are high enough to fund the general welfare.

So there's your answer.

Scandinavia is a region not a country.

4 countries

Norway 38.6% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 38.20%
Average working hours per week = 33.7 hrs.
Unemployment 4.99%

Sweden 42.6% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 52.90%
Average working hours per week = 30.1 hrs.
Unemployment 8.66%

Denmark 46.5% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 55.90%
Average working hours per week 33.72 hrs.
Unemployment 4.8%

Finland 41.9% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 56.95%
Average Working hours per week = 35.3 hrs.
Unemployment 7.53%

For an average of 42.4% taxation of GDP over those 4 countries.

Australia 28.7% of GDP
There are 4 personal income tax brackets - the top marginal rate being 45%.
Average working week is 35 hrs.
Unemployment is listed at 3.5%

That is one figure I don't believe - I believe its 3 times higher.

Especially in light of what hours constitutes a full time employment.

The country has massive underemployment, too much casual & part time .... that doesn't pay the bills.

The lower taxation on GDP only goes to show that successive Labor & Liberal govts have let greedy big business/corporate Australia, especially when it comes to the resource sector, off the hook in regards to taxation for far too long.

Then general welfare funding wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for these stats.

The relatively high unemployment in Sweden is notable; while Denmark has even higher taxation but lower unemployment.

Meanwhile:

"Sweden’s top personal tax rate of 57.2 percent applies to all income over 1.5 times the average national income".

" In comparison, the United States levies its top personal income tax rate of 43.7 percent (federal and state combined) at 9.2 times the average U.S. income (at around $500,000). Thus, a comparatively smaller share of taxpayers faces the top rate."

Hence the very high income and wealth inequality in the US.

Obviously Sweden's economy doesn't create enough jobs, but fortunately the dole is generous in Sweden.

..another indication the private sector neoliberal market economy doesn't create enough jobs....including in Oz, as you say.

In Oz, top marginal rate a applies to incomes c.3 times the average income.

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« Last Edit: Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 4:30pm by thegreatdivide »

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #796 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:12pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 4:19pm:

Gnads wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 3:16pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 12:50am:

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 7:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 5:34pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 21^st, 2022 at 3:59pm:

Quote:

High enough to fund common prosperity.

Do your words have any genuine meaning at all? Or do you just sprout banal CCP propaganda?

The term "common prosperity" offends you?

OK, I'll replace it with the term "general welfare", a term used in the preamble to the US constitution......

So now my post reads:

High enough to fund the general welfare.

But as Gareth Hutchens has observed: the neoliberal toad Philip Lowe should be exposed for pitting taxpayers against taxpayers ...with the most powerful group invariably winning....

...because Lowe can fund public policies himself (up to a limit defined by the nation's productive capacity, of course).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-24/rba-review-will-it-consider-how-money-is-...

It's the last taboo in central banking. So will the RBA review look at how money is created?

I meant, how high would you want taxes to go? The government currently takes about 28% of GDP.

Well....Scandinavia taxes at c.45%of GDP - and is a happier society than Oz.......since taxes there are high enough to fund the general welfare.

So there's your answer.

Scandinavia is a region not a country.

4 countries

Norway 38.6% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 38.20%
Average working hours per week = 33.7 hrs.
Unemployment 4.99%

Sweden 42.6% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 52.90%
Average working hours per week = 30.1 hrs.
Unemployment 8.66%

Denmark 46.5% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 55.90%
Average working hours per week 33.72 hrs.
Unemployment 4.8%

Finland 41.9% of GDP
Personal Income Tax Rate stands at 56.95%
Average Working hours per week = 35.3 hrs.
Unemployment 7.53%

For an average of 42.4% taxation of GDP over those 4 countries.

Australia 28.7% of GDP
There are 4 personal income tax brackets - the top marginal rate being 45%.
Average working week is 35 hrs.
Unemployment is listed at 3.5%

That is one figure I don't believe - I believe its 3 times higher.

Especially in light of what hours constitutes a full time employment.

The country has massive underemployment, too much casual & part time .... that doesn't pay the bills.

The lower taxation on GDP only goes to show that successive Labor & Liberal govts have let greedy big business/corporate Australia, especially when it comes to the resource sector, off the hook in regards to taxation for far too long.

Then general welfare funding wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for these stats.

The relatively high unemployment in Sweden is notable; while Denmark has even higher taxation but lower unemployment.

Meanwhile:

"Sweden’s top personal tax rate of 57.2 percent applies to all income over 1.5 times the average national income".

" In comparison, the United States levies its top personal income tax rate of 43.7 percent (federal and state combined) at 9.2 times the average U.S. income (at around $500,000). Thus, a comparatively smaller share of taxpayers faces the top rate."

Hence the very high income and wealth inequality in the US.

Obviously Sweden's economy doesn't create enough jobs, but fortunately the dole is generous in Sweden.

..another indication the private sector neoliberal market economy doesn't create enough jobs....including in Oz, as you say.

In Oz, top marginal rate a applies to incomes c.3 times the average income.

.... and only to that part of it over a certain rather high amount... somewhere around ... oh, you know ... a politician's base salary? So the lie about paying all that high rate tax is just that - a total lie. they only pay the highest rate on the highest portion well over 180k ...

HERE!

Income thresholds Rate Tax payable on this income
$0 – $18,200 0% Nil
$18,201 – $45,000 19% 19c for each $1 over $18,200
$45,001 – $120,000 32.5% $5,092 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $45,000
$120,001 – $180,000 37% $29,467 plus 37c for each $1 over $120,000
$180,001 and over 45%

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #797 - Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:19pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 5:12pm:

.... and only to that part of it over a certain rather high amount... somewhere around ... oh, you know ... a politician's base salary? So the lie about paying all that high rate tax is just that - a total lie. they only pay the highest rate on the highest portion well over 180k ...

HERE!

Income thresholds Rate Tax payable on this income
$0 – $18,200 0% Nil
$18,201 – $45,000 19% 19c for each $1 over $18,200
$45,001 – $120,000 32.5% $5,092 plus 32.5c for each $1 over $45,000
$120,001 – $180,000 37% $29,467 plus 37c for each $1 over $120,000
$180,001 and over 45%

Quite so, so there's certainly plenty of fat which can be taxed in 'rich' Oz, for the common good, aka the general welfare.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #798 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 8:26am

Then you have to add in all the extra stuff such as rates, excises, premiums over the basic healthcare refund, and so on and so on... all things free in Scandinavian countries no? So one tax covers everything - not just a few things.

A truck owner pays far more fuel excise here than others .... should he then pay the same rate of income tax? A pensioner requires more specialist medical care and very VERY few specialists charge the Medicare rate - same as every other person with chronic medical issues - should they pay the same rate of income tax?

False comparison.......

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #799 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 11:10am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 8:26am:

Then you have to add in all the extra stuff such as rates, excises, premiums over the basic healthcare refund, and so on and so on... all things free in Scandinavian countries no? So one tax covers everything - not just a few things.

A truck owner pays far more fuel excise here than others .... should he then pay the same rate of income tax? A pensioner requires more specialist medical care and very VERY few specialists charge the Medicare rate - same as every other person with chronic medical issues - should they pay the same rate of income tax?

False comparison.......

OK, so let's look at the overall tax take:

https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-their-government-spendi...

"It isn’t a mistake that taxes in Scandinavian countries are structured this way. In order to raise a significant amount of revenue, the tax base has to be broad. This means higher taxes on consumption through the VAT and higher taxes on middle-income taxpayers through high payroll taxes. Business taxes are a less reliable source of revenue (unless your country is situated on top of oil). Thus, Scandinavian countries do not place above-average tax burdens on capital income and focus taxation on labor and consumption".

Meanwhile in Oz, the middle class is burdened by mortgages on MacMansions, in a real-estate market ponzi (with the most expensive housing in the world), so government's ability to raise taxation is limited by politics.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 87755 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #800 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 11:49am Real estate is a choice - taxation is not....
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #801 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 12:05pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 11:49am:

Real estate is a choice - taxation is not....

Yes - real-estate from developers to homeowners, all driven by self-interest, not to mention rent-seekers..... as opposed to raising sufficient public funds on behalf of the common good.....

But taxation of course pits taxpayer against taxpayer, depending on the methods of taxation, which is why conservatives like to insist taxation is "stealing other peoples' money".

And indeed taxation is a fraud perpetrated by private financiers on government; but taxpayers are too busy fighting amongst themselves (in silly L-R politics) to see it....

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« Last Edit: Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 12:13pm by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #802 - Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 5:51pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 12:51pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 8:00am:

Quote:

since taxes there are high enough to fund the general welfare

Our unemployment benefits are more than twice the median wage in China, whose wealth creation you constantly praise.

The point is the near 50% of gdp taxes in highest on the "happiness index" 1st world Scandinavia, cf with your greedy "other peoples' money" neoliberal Thatcherite BS - which limits taxes to c. 25% in 1st world Oz...with its 3rd world poverty manifested in the gap.

Whereas the CCP had to lift a billion people out of absolute poverty without taxing the population at all, obviously - the people had no money to pay taxes.

Quote:

Do you think our taxes are high enough to fund the general welfare?

Of course not, fraud; double the rate to something like that of Scandinavia, and then get back to me.

(I'll let YOU decide WHO will pay and how much....be my guest, since you reject authorizing Philip Lowe to fund the general welfare, including closing the gap.)

So you promote high taxes only for rich countries. For countries that actually have to raise their citizens living standards, you think low taxation is a good idea.

Can you name a single country where the government taxes 50% or more of GDP?

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Gnads

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #803 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 8:38am

freediver wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 5:51pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 12:51pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2022 at 8:00am:

Quote:

since taxes there are high enough to fund the general welfare

Our unemployment benefits are more than twice the median wage in China, whose wealth creation you constantly praise.

The point is the near 50% of gdp taxes in highest on the "happiness index" 1st world Scandinavia, cf with your greedy "other peoples' money" neoliberal Thatcherite BS - which limits taxes to c. 25% in 1st world Oz...with its 3rd world poverty manifested in the gap.

Whereas the CCP had to lift a billion people out of absolute poverty without taxing the population at all, obviously - the people had no money to pay taxes.

Quote:

Do you think our taxes are high enough to fund the general welfare?

Of course not, fraud; double the rate to something like that of Scandinavia, and then get back to me.

(I'll let YOU decide WHO will pay and how much....be my guest, since you reject authorizing Philip Lowe to fund the general welfare, including closing the gap.)

So you promote high taxes only for rich countries. For countries that actually have to raise their citizens living standards, you think low taxation is a good idea.

Can you name a single country where the government taxes 50% or more of GDP?

Denmarks 46.5% of GDP is close enough.

with personal income tax as high as 55.9%

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #804 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 1:38pm

freediver wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 5:51pm:

So you promote high taxes only for rich countries. For countries that actually have to raise their citizens living standards, you think low taxation is a good idea.

In our greed-based neoliberal global economy, led by the paranoid US attempting to maintain global hegemony, and its stooge the IMF (Instant Misery Fund), the only option for poor countries is to trade their way to prosperity..an impossible task for many.

Quote:

Can you name a single country where the government taxes 50% or more of GDP?

Already done, see the post above.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 87755 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #805 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 3:18pm What about the taxes in the New Abo Republics? Will they be high or non-existent?
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freediver

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #806 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 3:59pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 24^th, 2022 at 1:38pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2022 at 5:51pm:

So you promote high taxes only for rich countries. For countries that actually have to raise their citizens living standards, you think low taxation is a good idea.

In our greed-based neoliberal global economy, led by the paranoid US attempting to maintain global hegemony, and its stooge the IMF (Instant Misery Fund), the only option for poor countries is to trade their way to prosperity..an impossible task for many.

Quote:

Can you name a single country where the government taxes 50% or more of GDP?

Already done, see the post above.

No you didn't. Are you having difficulty understanding the question?

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Jasin

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #807 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 5:00pm

I liked this one from Bolt.

"It's not what Morrison did to our Past,
it's what Albanese is doing to our Future"

And I must admit that putting up with Albanese the Constipated slow release of words dribbling from his mouth - would give anyone the s*hits.

Albanese - still spending time going on about a Scumo 'insignificance' of no consequence, while smuggling in APARTHEID into Australia.
...just another 'Media' jock Politician like Biden - both as stupid as each other for the Democrat corruption.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/ugly-and-dangerous-indigenous-voice-will-st...

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #808 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 5:00pm

Let's leave all that bullshit for a moment, boys:-

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/torres-strait-islanders-push-for-separate-st...

"Why some Torres Strait Islanders are pushing for their own statement from the 'motherland' amid Voice debate
Some Torres Strait Islanders are calling for their own statement separate to the Uluru Statement from the Heart. Here's why.

As debate over the Voice to Parliament referendum continues, some Torres Strait Islanders are pushing for their own statement to reflect the wishes of the local people, separate from the Uluru Statement from the Heart.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, Indigenous Australians Minister Linda Burney and Queensland senator Nita Green visited the Torres Strait this week to consult on the Voice proposal to give Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders people a say in the laws that affect them.

Representatives from more than a dozen island communities came together to deliver their messages to the prime minister.

Leaders acknowledged that beyond a voice on government decisions, there's also a push towards more autonomy in the Torres Strait.

The Torres Strait is made up of hundreds of islands and at least 15 communities, spread across the very north of Queensland and sharing an international border with Papua New Guinea.

On Friday, Melora Noah, a senior woman from Mer Island, told SBS News her community was keen to explore self-government and a separate statement to the Uluru Statement from the Heart, the document calling for the establishment of a First Nations Voice in the Australian Constitution."

The resulting Voice to Parliament proposal came after extensive consultations conducted by Indigenous academics Marcia Langton and Tom Calma.

Professor Calma conducted talks in the Torres Strait, and told SBS News there would be places set aside for local representation under the proposed Voice to Parliament.

This includes two positions allocated to mainland Queensland, two for the Torres Strait Islands and an additional position to represent the majority of Torres Strait Islander people who live on mainland Australia, he said.

Professor Calma said while there are key differences in needs between each region of Australia, housing was a universal concern.

"What we're proposing is that Australia is divided up into 35 regions, and at least 35," he said.

"Each of those regions will have their own secretariat support. And within a region, they would collectively, and this is all Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people living in these regions, come and determine the priorities for that region. And the priorities will differ around the nation but we know, and it's almost universal as we travelled, the number one priority was housing."

Professor Calma said that if Torres Strait Islanders "as a collective want to get a statement of claims, I suppose, through a treaty process, they're quite within their rights to do that. And when the discussion about a national treaty takes place, they'll get the opportunity".

"But the Voice to Parliament is not about a treaty. It's about a mechanism to be able to enable Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, irrespective of where you live or who you're affiliated with, to be able to have a say in those national matters that are going to affect affect them at a local level," he said.

But the Voice proposal does not go far enough for some, including Ms Noah.

Ms Noah said the Uluru Statement from the Heart is a "good idea" but the Albanese government needs to factor in differences between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples."

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 52829 Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #809 - Aug 24^th, 2022 at 5:08pm And who's your favourite cuddly member who has been saying for well over a decade... ...that Australia will fracture into many 'independent' nations of their own. Now Grapps, who's a clever boy?
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Poll
Question: Will you vote for a separate Aboriginal Voice in Parliament?
YES 11 (28.9%) NO 27 (71.1%) Total votes: 38 « Created by: Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM on: Jul 30^th, 2022 at 7:27pm »