freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2022 at 9:19pm:


FD?

An uninformed population will always think such a thing is a good idea without considering all the relevant issues..... sounds good at first glance.

What was the question asked?

Now - when they are fully informed and understand fully what the ramifications are, they might well think differently.

Meantime, everywhere in Realityland, the predominance is NO.

You may now cease with the propaganda and begin discussing all the issues - including the nuts and bolts of how this silly idea is supposed to work, where it's funding is coming from, and so forth....

AusGeoff wrote on Aug 6^th, 2022 at 11:34pm:


So the final solution of 51(xxvi) is now - "empowered the Parliament to make laws
with respect to "The people of any race,  for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws".

So who are these people for whom it may be deemed necessary to make special laws?

This sounds like a reversion to what I said earlier about Geoffrey Robertson's statement - that Australia's beginning and upbringing meant that it did not include any Bill of Rights or basic Rights in its Constitution.

Again - this does not confer any special rights on any specific group - it is a general statement of the simple reality that covers all citizens equally and is not to be inferred as removing any special rights from Indigenous or excluding anyone, but simply to state that no Bill of Rights exists here.

Damn - I know I should have copied it in my file of quotes.... bugger this changing computers ... the old one's got all my files......

So who are these people for whom it may be deemed necessary to make special laws?

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 6^th, 2022 at 11:49pm:


From the same Spectator article:


There are three broad groups of Indigenous people, each quite different, apart from a common ethnic link.

The first group, and the most populous, are urban Aboriginals who live in large cities and towns. In the main, they are virtually indistinguishable from anyone else. They are educated and employed. They do not live together in enclaves, instead occupying the same spaces as most Australians and other residents. Their aspirations, values, and life challenges mirror those of mainstream Australian society. It is from this group that the vast majority of activists are drawn.

The second group are urban Aboriginals who live in smaller towns. Generally, these towns have significant Aboriginal populations, and this group has a tendency to live together in enclaves. They socialise largely among themselves. They do suffer a degree of disadvantage, and sometimes racist antipathy. Statistically, they are less likely to attend higher education (which may be symptomatic of the small community), but they are employed in the same proportion as other lower socioeconomic groups. They live in proper houses, their children go to school, and they are generally healthy. Much of the disadvantage they suffer is attributable primarily to their low socioeconomic status, not their race.

Then there are the remote and/or tribal Aborigines living in isolated communities in outback towns. These groups tend to be close-knit with less ethnic diversity. They live in communities with high-level family connections and report a lower standard of education than their urban cousins. Given the size and isolation of these communities, they are often unemployed and practice, to varying extents, aspects of traditional culture. In many of these communities, disease, alcoholism, and both domestic and sexual abuse are rife. In particular, tribalism is a major inhibitor of progress. It is in these regions where ‘the gap’ is most pronounced.

For example, in Aurukun North Queensland, in January 2020, violence flared up to the extent that 300 of the 1,200 residents fled the community. There is a structural problem in Aurukun Shire which is culturally divided into five clan groupings: Wanam, Winchanam, Puutch, Apalech, and Chara. Generational vendettas based on ‘payback’ have regularly flared into street fights among males aged between 16 and 49, armed with bows and spears. Aurukun is not alone. Wadeye, in the Northern Territory, is another case. Dysfunctional situations like this make it difficult for wider society to increase the standard of living in these communities. Money does not solve cultural problems when only the Indigenous people within these communities can walk away from historic violence.

Obviously, laws that impact these different Indigenous groups will vary significantly. To suggest that educated urban Indigenous people such as the activist class will have a unique insight into the problems faced by dysfunctional remote communities – an insight superior to those of the local community and recognised subject experts – is fanciful.

Legislation that impacts the Indigenous population covers two main types. There is coercive legislation, designed to curb dangerous and anti-social behaviour, and enhancing legislation, to advance Indigenous people in education, sport, employment, and housing. These are enacted under the provisions of Section 51 (xxvi) of our Constitution, passed – accompanied by much acclaim by the Indigenous community – in the 1967 referendum. That is, Indigenous people welcomed the ability of the government to make special laws to benefit them. It was not considered an imposition on Indigenous people, which is the implicit message of the mantra that ‘it’s only right that Indigenous people should have a say in laws made in respect of them’.
https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/08/what-is-the-true-purpose-of-the-voice/

mothra wrote on Aug 6^th, 2022 at 10:50pm:


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Just be careful when you quote, smith - and that you do not attach my name to something I did not say.  It's not hard to even mark and quote accurately, and your failure raises suspicions of attempting to impute things to me that do not apply.  Anyway - let's bring on the hate sessions again:-

" Aborigines etc already have all the voice they need same as everyone else.

They already have a higher percentage of representation in Parliament than their percentage representation in the community.

They are already enshrined in the constitution as Australians - same as everyone else.

They also have lobby groups, special representative groups with access to government, and over-representation in the press.

They have the support of Labor, the Greens, the majority of Independents, as well as a number of those on the 'right' side of Parliament.

What the actual powers and functions of any Special Voice are intended to be has not begun to be addressed.  The wording is vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Such a voice is racist, discriminatory and exclusionist.

It is not clear if any 'voice' has political voting power in Parliament.

Such a voice body would be an ATSIC or similar that could never be abolished or stood down for corruption etc.

It will achieve nothing that cannot be achieved without it, and at huge and unnecessary cost in money and disturbance of the democratic process

The intent of 'Aboriginal activists' is not to view this as the end result, but as the stepping stone towards the creation of mini-states throughout Australia, all bound by treaty to the Australian Government and funded by the taxpayer and any relevant business wishing to operate there.

It is not simply about 'Aboriginal issues'.  Any claim or demand by one group has direct effects on every member of Australia.  Similar to 'women's issues' and such these do not exist in a vacuum.

Depending on the model, it could mean permanent seats in Parliament for people who are only voted on by that one group (or groups) – those claiming Aboriginal descent.

To have a separate voice elected only by Aboriginals would mean that the current Aboriginal elected representatives are superfluous and should be stood down.

The claim to have 'never ceded sovereignty', means that elected Aborigines are ineligible to be chosen or to sit in Parliament.

44. Any person who –

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

Further – Albo's speech:-

It would also be critical to delete the words “and the executive government” from the proposed second sentence. Voice activists have spoken about a “voice to parliament” arguing that commenting on proposed bills before parliament is modest in scope.

Extending the reach of this body to everything done by executive government means it could permanently second-guess everything that passed across the desk of ministers or public servants. This extension is an act of massive overreach that will radically change our system of government. "

Frank wrote on Aug 7^th, 2022 at 11:00am:


Good article. So the problem of "the gap" becomes progressively worse, the more remote the community.... though black lifespans on average are probably lower  in cities as well, because lower social economic groups have lower life spans ie poverty kills.   

But I say again, if the nation won't fund sensible intervention to close the gap, nothing will change...for lower social-economic groups of any race.

Who'd have thunk it, it's all about money...you know,  the stuff which is created out of nothing, a fact which interest-chasing private financiers want to hide from the rest of us. 

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 6^th, 2022 at 11:02pm:


#518, which you have not answered, exposes the inadequacy of the conservative "personal responsibility" stance, by linking it to macroeconomic circumstances out-side the control of individuals.

As to funding, see my reply to Frank's link to a very well thought out article:

....Who'd have thunk it, it's all about money...you know,  the stuff which is created out of nothing , a fact which interest-chasing private financiers want to hide from the rest of us.

And Chalmers is certainly so deluded,  which is why he is already crying poor. 

Nevertheless, if the nation won't fund sensible intervention to close the gap, nothing will change...for lower social-economic groups of any race.

You all deserve the misery of the upcoming needless referendum, for allowing greedy private financiers to pull the wool over your eyes re government funding.