Australian Politics Forum - The question about a voice will be asked...

MeisterEckhart

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #465 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:19am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 12:24am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 10:08pm:

There would have been a time (a blink of an eye since the passing of their general acceptance in the timeline of human history) when the likes of absolute monarchy, slavery and restrictive/privileged suffrage were accepted as normative. Now, not so much.

So you now reveal that this is about EXTRA suffrage for Indigenous? You Know - a privilege not carried by everyone else and thus not a right? Talk about privileged suffrage... one person - two votes or more.... vote early - vote often.... welcome to the Third World.

Why do they need extra suffrage?

[][img]https://c.tenor.com/gSunEEnWgbgAAAAd/carnival-games-shoot.gif[][/center]

Serious question - are you trying to defend this idea or trying to bring it down?

NZ has successfully maintained indigenous seats since 1868. In this respect Australia is 150 years behind the times due largely to over 170 years of a powerful white-trash element that has corrupted the Australian psyche since 1788.

It's possible that constitutional change is 10 years too early, as currently it will be hindered by the white-trash mindset of the mid-20th century and prior.

Ten years from now that mindset will be eradicated with the passing of the generations that still bear them.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 76766 Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #466 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:24am mothra wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 7:46pm: I rest my case. I honestly think he's oblivious to what he says
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #467 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:32am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 7:21am:

Captain Nemo wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 12:32am:

Well, Albo has begun walking back already from Saturday's claim that the referendum would be held before any detail about what The Voice to Parliament would actually look like.

It's a start.

A wise move.

The Australian people must be given the opportunity to consider the full definition of 'voice' prior to a referendum on whether there should be one.

Nice to see you move away from your generation wars nonsense and your utter despising of what you call the colonial white trash mindset etc.. the road is open ahead of you now to mature discussion...

Now for the real issues - they've been laid out for yez all times many..... though some become mired in ad homs and personal BS - their only solid and reliable weapons in discussion... you know who I mean....

Onwards, children - the future awaits........ show me that horizon ....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 87438 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #468 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:34am John Smith wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:24am: mothra wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 7:46pm: I rest my case. I honestly think he's oblivious to what he says We all KNOW you are ......
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #469 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:54am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:19am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 12:24am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 10:08pm:

There would have been a time (a blink of an eye since the passing of their general acceptance in the timeline of human history) when the likes of absolute monarchy, slavery and restrictive/privileged suffrage were accepted as normative. Now, not so much.

So you now reveal that this is about EXTRA suffrage for Indigenous? You Know - a privilege not carried by everyone else and thus not a right? Talk about privileged suffrage... one person - two votes or more.... vote early - vote often.... welcome to the Third World.

Why do they need extra suffrage?

[][img]https://c.tenor.com/gSunEEnWgbgAAAAd/carnival-games-shoot.gif[][/center]

Serious question - are you trying to defend this idea or trying to bring it down?

NZ has successfully maintained indigenous seats since 1868. In this respect Australia is 150 years behind the times due largely to over 170 years of a powerful white-trash element that has corrupted the Australian psyche since 1788.

It's possible that constitutional change is 10 years too early, as currently it will be hindered by the white-trash mindset of the mid-20th century and prior.

Ten years from now that mindset will be eradicated with the passing of the generations that still bear them.

Doesn't tell us why they should be given extra privileged suffrage that nobody else has..... extra access that nobody else has .... the Constitution Which Will Remain Untouched does not mention colour or creed..... citizens.... love it or leave it.....

Still stuck on your outdated ideas on social groups defined by age - stupid really - can't expect any more from people educated these days.... all Jews are the same.. all footballers are the same .... all Mussos are the same ....all Abos are the same..... all Boomers are the same......

You get where I'm going yet? Roll Eyes

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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John Smith

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #470 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:57am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:34am:

John Smith wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:24am:

mothra wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 7:46pm:

I rest my case.

I honestly think he's oblivious to what he says Grin

We all KNOW you are ......

since we've already determined that you're oblivious to the obvious, I'm not sure you actually 'know' what you think you know

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #471 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:59am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:54am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:19am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 12:24am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 10:08pm:

There would have been a time (a blink of an eye since the passing of their general acceptance in the timeline of human history) when the likes of absolute monarchy, slavery and restrictive/privileged suffrage were accepted as normative. Now, not so much.

So you now reveal that this is about EXTRA suffrage for Indigenous? You Know - a privilege not carried by everyone else and thus not a right? Talk about privileged suffrage... one person - two votes or more.... vote early - vote often.... welcome to the Third World.

Why do they need extra suffrage?

[][img]https://c.tenor.com/gSunEEnWgbgAAAAd/carnival-games-shoot.gif[][/center]

Serious question - are you trying to defend this idea or trying to bring it down?

NZ has successfully maintained indigenous seats since 1868. In this respect Australia is 150 years behind the times due largely to over 170 years of a powerful white-trash element that has corrupted the Australian psyche since 1788.

It's possible that constitutional change is 10 years too early, as currently it will be hindered by the white-trash mindset of the mid-20th century and prior.

Ten years from now that mindset will be eradicated with the passing of the generations that still bear them.

Doesn't tell us why they should be given extra privileged suffrage that nobody else has..... extra access that nobody else has .... the Constitution Which Will Remain Untouched does not mention colour or creed..... citizens.... love it or leave it.....

Still stuck on your outdated ideas on social groups defined by age - stupid really - can't expect any more from people educated these days.... all Jews are the same.. all footballers are the same .... all Mussos are the same ....all Abos are the same..... all Boomers are the same......

You get where I'm going yet? Roll Eyes

The indigenous issue is a unique situation that should be managed by recognising the special status of indigenous people.

Previous generations are infested with a malevolent ethno-chauvinistic sensibility that must pass away for that malevolence to be eradicated - it cannot be extricated from those who are its bearers.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 87438 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The question about a voice will be asked... Reply #472 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 11:00am What special status is that?
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #473 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 11:02am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 7:21am:

Captain Nemo wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 12:32am:

Well, Albo has begun walking back already from Saturday's claim that the referendum would be held before any detail about what The Voice to Parliament would actually look like.

It's a start.

A wise move.

The Australian people must be given the opportunity to consider the full definition of 'voice' prior to a referendum on whether there should be one.

Nice to see you move away from your generation wars nonsense and your utter despising of what you call the colonial white trash mindset etc.. the road is open ahead of you now to mature discussion...

Now for the real issues - they've been laid out for yez all times many..... though some become mired in ad homs and personal BS - their only solid and reliable weapons in discussion... you know who I mean....

Onwards, children - the future awaits........ show me that horizon ....

I was referring to those who can consider the issue without the baggage of the white-trash mindset of the 50s and prior.

People from those generations with that mindset are unreachable.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #474 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 11:11am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 11:02am:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 10:32am:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 7:21am:

Captain Nemo wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 12:32am:

Well, Albo has begun walking back already from Saturday's claim that the referendum would be held before any detail about what The Voice to Parliament would actually look like.

It's a start.

A wise move.

The Australian people must be given the opportunity to consider the full definition of 'voice' prior to a referendum on whether there should be one.

Nice to see you move away from your generation wars nonsense and your utter despising of what you call the colonial white trash mindset etc.. the road is open ahead of you now to mature discussion...

Now for the real issues - they've been laid out for yez all times many..... though some become mired in ad homs and personal BS - their only solid and reliable weapons in discussion... you know who I mean....

Onwards, children - the future awaits........ show me that horizon ....

I was referring to those who can consider the issue without the baggage of the white-trash mindset of the 50s and prior.

People from those generations with that mindset are unreachable.

What percentage of those people would you arbitrarily deem to belong to that group of intractables?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #475 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 11:12am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 11:00am:

What special status is that?

The recognition that aboriginal people bear the scars of dispossession, informal slavery, and the multiple attempts at their genocide as a people, has damaged their collective psyche.

Now the full definition must be established of how this can be achieved constitutionally and legislatively.

But, as I've said above, I suspect the current proposal may be 10 years too early.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #476 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 1:42pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 5:19pm:

So what is not answered?

Your denial of social dysfunction, its causes and remedies. (And diversions re race).

Quote:

Pray tell us what if worth answering?

Ahha, so you decide 'what's worth answering, even though many government level-committees examined the CDEP and found it successful.

Quote:

Your view on feminism, though totally wrong, is noted. What exactly opportunities do women lack in this day and age?

Low pay in predominantly caring industries is a problem which needs to be addressed, to achieve equality of opportunity.

Quote:

do you feel that according privilege to an entire demographic is the way forward?

Not privilege but wage justice.

Quote:

If not, then clearly you agree with me - that affirmative action and all other steps to 'equalise' people should only be applied to those with genuine need and disadvantage - not to fat sheilas from the rich suburbs who never missed out on anything and never will.

Interestingly, "fat sheilas" tend to inhabit poorer suburbs....

Quote:

My only ideology is that I oppose all parties.... and when things are clearly not working they should be abolished.

Yeh-- you and Price are birds of a feather: personal responsibility alone will fix it....

Quote:

I have never discussed the CDEP scheme with you or anyone else.... so don't try to equate me with Howard's Way....

But the CDEP engendered real and effective community development, aka successful government intervention ...which you rail against at every opportunity. You ready to admit your mistake?

Quote:

I know there was a Cheer business in town down south and it had to close down when funding was removed - that's about all.

Well that requires further examination, to see why it failed...

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #477 - Aug 4^th, 2022 at 5:34pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 1:42pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2022 at 5:19pm:

So what is not answered?

Your denial of social dysfunction, its causes and remedies. (And diversions re race).

Quote:

Pray tell us what if worth answering?

Ahha, so you decide 'what's worth answering, even though many government level-committees examined the CDEP and found it successful.

Relevance to the issue under discussion is important, don't you think?

Quote:

Your view on feminism, though totally wrong, is noted. What exactly opportunities do women lack in this day and age?

Low pay in predominantly caring industries is a problem which needs to be addressed, to achieve equality of opportunity.

Every person is paid in accordance with their job.. no more - no less that is the law.

Quote:

do you feel that according privilege to an entire demographic is the way forward?

Not privilege but wage justice.

Privilege to be boosted into higher paying jobs via artificial advancement - the ISSUE is giving Indigenous an opporunity to vote twice and have a special vote only. You can discuss women elsewhere - but you are still wrong.

Quote:

If not, then clearly you agree with me - that affirmative action and all other steps to 'equalise' people should only be applied to those with genuine need and disadvantage - not to fat sheilas from the rich suburbs who never missed out on anything and never will.

Interestingly, "fat sheilas" tend to inhabit poorer suburbs....

The term was intended to indicate fat cat sheilas....

Quote:

My only ideology is that I oppose all parties.... and when things are clearly not working they should be abolished.

Yeh-- you and Price are birds of a feather: personal responsibility alone will fix it....

Quote:

I have never discussed the CDEP scheme with you or anyone else.... so don't try to equate me with Howard's Way....

But the CDEP engendered real and effective community development, aka successful government intervention ...which you rail against at every opportunity. You ready to admit your mistake?

Quote:

I know there was a Cheer business in town down south and it had to close down when funding was removed - that's about all.

Well that requires further examination, to see why it failed...

No denial involved - every individual doesn't have to live in that swamp for life. Each is captain of his/her own soul.

No mistake - never discussed the CDEP... only that one business that I knew of in town and the word came from the blokes who operated it that funding had ceased and it was productive.

Price and I are correct....... you are mistaken.

ADDS:- And of course you are sadly mistaken again - I do not 'rail' against intervention - I refuse to accept that any government has any unmitigated right to intervene and take total control so as to enforce its usually shallow and often stupid ideas of what should be done to correct things. Governments do not have a solid history of real success in such things..... and what is required is the personal sovereignty of each individual to be recognised and enhanced, and clear alternatives shown to them - education, innit - on how they can overcome their current malaise..... it's called guidance rather than intervention ..... they can choose to accept it or not... their choice, but it should not be enforced upon them all by some government with no real idea.

How about the government come in and tell you how to correct your life, boyo?

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« Last Edit: Aug 4^th, 2022 at 9:11pm by Sir Grappler Truth Teller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #478 - Aug 5^th, 2022 at 3:35pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 4^th, 2022 at 5:34pm:

No denial involved - every individual doesn't have to live in that swamp for life. Each is captain of his/her own soul.

Government is necessary, the question is who will benefit from particular government policies.

Currently the least advantaged are considered expendable - left to subsist on the unemployment scrap heap, or on below poverty welfare.

Quote:

No mistake - never discussed the CDEP...

It was an example of effective outcomes-based government intervention, closed because conservative ideologues don't like government-funded social programs. (Progressive defunding of Medicare bulk billing is another example: general practitioners are deserting the public system in droves, meaning Oz's famed "free" medicare for all, is disappearing).

Quote:

Price and I are correct....... you are mistaken.

Where are your facts to support this? (I'm looking at your tagline "facts are stubborn things" ...they sure are, in the heads of blind ideologues who think poverty is a solely a microeconomic (individual responsibility) matter, rather than macroeconomics also.

Quote:

ADDS:- And of course you are sadly mistaken again - I do not 'rail' against intervention - I refuse to accept that any government has any unmitigated right to intervene and take total control so as to enforce its usually shallow and often stupid ideas of what should be done to correct things.

You are shifting your ground, at least that's something, from 'Intervention TM' always fails to "usually shallow and often stupid ideas".....

Time to accept government intervention may be successful, and work out how to increase the success rate of said intervention.

Quote:

Governments do not have a solid history of real success in such things..... and what is required is the personal sovereignty of each individual to be recognised and enhanced, and clear alternatives shown to them - education, innit - on how they can overcome their current malaise..... it's called guidance rather than intervention ..... they can choose to accept it or not... their choice, but it should not be enforced upon them all by some government with no real idea.

Education: public sector education is disadvantaged by conservative ideologues who want to transfer the cost to the individual....

Quote:

How about the government come in and tell you how to correct your life, boyo?

I received a good public education, but schools in less advantaged areas are falling behind, which is what the Gonski report - shelved by both liberal and labor - was all about.

"Private schools received an extra $10bn funding in Coalition 'special deals', study finds. The Morrison government has directed an extra $10bn to private schools since 2018 while public schools are underfunded by at least $6.5bn every year, according to a new report.27 Apr 2022"

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issuevoter

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #479 - Aug 5^th, 2022 at 4:53pm

Most people, whether indigenous or not, are not aware of their own potential. Education is hugely important, but it will not do you any good, if you do not have any imagination. Parents and communities must foster imagination and inquisitiveness. In pre-industrial times, people were limited to the horizon around their village, but the same is true today, in different ways. So if a young person is neither inquisitive or imaginative, they will never be more than a drone. And no amount of a voice in parliament will change that.

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Poll
Question: Will you vote for a separate Aboriginal Voice in Parliament?
YES 11 (28.9%) NO 27 (71.1%) Total votes: 38 « Created by: Sir Grappler Truth Teller on: Jul 30^th, 2022 at 7:27pm »