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Poll Poll
Question: Will you vote for a separate Aboriginal Voice in Parliament?

YES    
  11 (28.9%)
NO    
  27 (71.1%)




Total votes: 38
« Created by: Sir Grappler Truth Teller on: Jul 30th, 2022 at 7:27pm »

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The question about a voice will be asked... (Read 59929 times)
John Smith
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #420 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 4:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:40pm:
Do you not see the relevance?


i see the deflection. What happened with ATSIC is exactly why the voice needs to be enshrined in the constitution. As happened with Atsic, there are to many racist rednecks in politics waiting in the wings for the slightest  excuse to silence whatever voice the aborigines have

freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:40pm:
It is corrupt by design.



so change the design. Don't eliminate whatever voice they had

freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:40pm:
The Australian people vote the Liberal party out of power on a regular basis, including for corruption


Likewise corrupt personal in Atsic should have been removed without removing the one voice available to the aborigines.

freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:40pm:
What recourse will Aboriginal Australians have if they do not think "the voice" is their voice, or who think it is fundamentally racist to assume that the half million or so Aboriginal Australians all think the same thoughts and can be represented by one voice?

parliament can change the people 'representing' that voice anytime they feel the voice isn't representing the people it's supposed to be.
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #421 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:02pm
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 4:55pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:40pm:
Do you not see the relevance?


i see the deflection. What happened with ATSIC is exactly why the voice needs to be enshrined in the constitution. As happened with Atsic, there are to many racist rednecks in politics waiting in the wings for the slightest  excuse to silence whatever voice the aborigines have



Utter crap and nonsense.


There was bipartisan parliamentary support for the abolishing of ATSIC.

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #422 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:06pm
 
Frank wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:02pm:
John Smith wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 4:55pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:40pm:
Do you not see the relevance?


i see the deflection. What happened with ATSIC is exactly why the voice needs to be enshrined in the constitution. As happened with Atsic, there are to many racist rednecks in politics waiting in the wings for the slightest  excuse to silence whatever voice the aborigines have



Utter crap and nonsense.


There was bipartisan parliamentary support for the abolishing of ATSIC.



only a cretin like you would write off the truth as nonsense.
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Frank
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #423 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:16pm
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:06pm:
Frank wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:02pm:
John Smith wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 4:55pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:40pm:
Do you not see the relevance?


i see the deflection. What happened with ATSIC is exactly why the voice needs to be enshrined in the constitution. As happened with Atsic, there are to many racist rednecks in politics waiting in the wings for the slightest  excuse to silence whatever voice the aborigines have



Utter crap and nonsense.


There was bipartisan parliamentary support for the abolishing of ATSIC.



only a cretin like you would write off the truth as nonsense.



Which is why you write off documented historical facts - you are too befogged to remember them and too thick to recognise them when they are put before your rheumatic, unfocused eyes:

From the Parliamentary Library
On 15 April 2004, the Prime Minister, Mr Howard, and the Minister for Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs, Senator Amanda Vanstone, announced the government s intention to abolish the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC). This followed the Australian Labor Party s announcement a few weeks earlier that it would do likewise if elected to government later this year. Consequently, what was seen as a bold experiment in the administration of Indigenous affairs when ATSIC was established in 1989 seems certain to be drawing to a close.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_...
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #424 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:19pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 4:53pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 2:14pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 1:50pm:
[quote author=The_Grappler link=1659098415/398#398 date=1659496002]


Correct - part of the reason for that is genetic, there is the violence and stress they impose on one another in far too many cases, the diet they choose to pursue, and they lead a life of often substance abuse.


Genetics? Let's pass on that one, since we can't change that.  But social dysfunction - of groups or individuals -  is something we can all intervene in, assisted by effective government.

Quote:
  Those are personal issues most of which can be fixed by them.  They do not want 'intervention' - they want to 'do things their way'.


Obviously wrong. Just as you can't fix the current cost of living issues facing the most disadvantaged in the wider community, only government can do that...but NOT a government captured by neoliberal market orthodoxy...

Not wrong at all - every 'intervention' has failed largely because no amount of intervention changes the material with which it attempts to work.  Band-aid solutions at best, then the 'culture' resumes it old course, and IS vilified as being paternalistic.


Quote:
Doesn't matter what 'nationality' is - it is what it is.... being part of a nation, a group with generally the same requirements.  It is impossible to simply abolish nations and then have totally open borders - clearly all  cultures are not equal in their behaviour and values ... and each is as entitled as any other to stick to what they want.


Fair enough, but your wrong basic propositions, addressed above, are the issues requiring attention, not debates on separate  land for ethnics groups (or extremist calls for abo ownership of Australia)

Your "shadow government " argument has already been refuted, an advisory  voice - at least until we close the gap - is not a "shadow government".

As for your anti-'feminist' tirades, women MPs will be no more incompetent than male MPs, so what's the problem? 
 Indeed - see Gallagher's response to Price's Question...clearly competence is not a virtue in politics .... but waffling is....   BTW - no tirades - just stating simple realities.... while ever you have preference for certain groups you will not encourage genuine talent.. just mediocrity and a divided nation..  No More Handouts!  One day you'll get in touch with the reality.  FYI 'feminism' is not representative of the majority of real women.



You answered 2 points only.

1. you continue to claim intervention doesn't work. That's because you are as ideologically blind as Howard who cancelled the very successful  CDEP scheme introduced by Fraser in 1977, before vicious neoliberalism became entrenched.

2. feminism is not a preference for women, but a preference for  equality of opportunity, for people.   



So what is not answered?  Pray tell us what if worth answering?  Your view on feminism, though totally wrong, is noted.  What exactly opportunities do women lack in this day and age?  do you feel that according privilege to an entire demographic is the way forward?  If not, then clearly you agree with me - that affirmative action and all other steps to 'equalise' people should only be applied to those with genuine need and disadvantage - not to fat sheilas from the rich suburbs who never missed out on anything and never will.

My only ideology is that I oppose all parties.... and when things are clearly not working they should be abolished.  I have never discussed the CDEP scheme with you or anyone else.... so don't try to equate me with Howard's Way.... I know there was a Cheer business in town down south and it had to close down when funding was removed - that's about all.
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John Smith
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #425 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:21pm
 
Frank wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:16pm:
Which is why you write off documented historical facts


whether it is documented or not does not change anything I said fool. Who said the racist rednecks were limited to one party?
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #426 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:23pm
 
Now, children - try to stick to the subject matter.... you've been told countless times, with support from sources, why Aborigines in remote communities might suffer relative disadvantage - though many others would love to have the idyllic lifestyle of sitting on the beach, fishing, and having air service to scoot you to medical treatments and such... and get free money while doing so and living in free housing.

None so blind.... do you actually believe every tale you hear?  Or do you only listen to the ones that suit your ideology?
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #427 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:29pm
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:21pm:
Frank wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:16pm:
Which is why you write off documented historical facts


whether it is documented or not does not change anything I said fool. Who said the racist rednecks were limited to one party?


.. well - you are one by your behaviour.... your attitude towards others... and as for the concentration camp guard and his thought that all will be well once the 'boomers' are all gone - he would make an excellent commandant disposing of these New Jews who have taken over from Der Vrei Volk and have stolen all the good jobs and capital and such..... they should be stripped of everything and exterminated... jah, jah ...

Such idiotic views are only one step from having a Kristallnacht against boomers who worked like dogs over a lifetime in the often hard jobs to accumulate for their retirement while building a far better and easier life for their children and grand-children...... you all should be flogged in a public square... you idiots carry on and on without any thought or reason claiming that women were oppressed - and yet you now want those same women to die off so you can get your grubby little undeserving hands on their property....

I'm surrounded by idiots..... and clearly Fascists -in-waiting too.... bloody European peasant blow-ins....  all Stalinists or Nazis....  Jesus - what have our governments done to us?
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« Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:35pm by Sir Grappler Truth Teller »  

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #428 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:32pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:29pm:
.. well - you are one by your behaviour.... your attitude towards others...

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #429 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:36pm
 
For you smith - you're the one always going on about minorities and how badly they cop it... Freediver needs to quarantine you once a week out of habit for 24 hours or so - so the adults can talk:-

...
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #430 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:40pm
 
what did you say your IQ was? 10?

you realise that meme doesn't apply for what you're criticizing me off, right?
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #431 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:47pm
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:21pm:
Frank wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:16pm:
Which is why you write off documented historical facts


whether it is documented or not does not change anything I said fool. Who said the racist rednecks were limited to one party?


You are repeating stupid, lazy and empty accusations that you cannot possibly support with any evidence - and reject detailed, documented evidence for the same stupid and lazy reasons.  It all saves you from thinking which only gives you splitting headaches. 


You accuse the majority of both parties of being rednecks, implying that those who elected them are also mostly redneck - because a poorly performing statutory body was abolished on a bipartisan basis and was REPLACED WITH an alternative mechanism of advising the government of the day of any hue on Aboriginal matters.

You lefty mongs are more dogmatic and blinkered than the Spanish Inquisition - and nobody is expecting the Spanish inquisition in this day and age.

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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #432 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 6:04pm
 
John Smith wrote on Aug 3rd, 2022 at 5:40pm:
what did you say your IQ was? 10?

you realise that meme doesn't apply for what you're criticizing me off, right?



You're off anyway without any criticism... any such is apt in your case... you realise that your meme in no way applies to someone of gigantic intellectual stature who seeks to discuss openly all issues?

Even you should be able to work out that my defending the old ladies now who you assholes call the thieves of your heritage or whatever is a fine cause... and proves you are all unthinking robotic idiots.

Can't wait for your parents to die so you can strip the assets off those rapacious baby boomers, eh?  Your mother was so oppressed you are now drooling over getting your filthy hands on her worldly goods...

You and your kind are idiots, Smith and should spend a wet weekend in the public stocks outside the shopping centres frequented by boomers... see how you'd go then.
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #433 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 6:24pm
 
Spoon feeding for idiots 101..... next four issues raised by this board.....

They already have a higher percentage of representation in Parliament than their percentage representation in the community.

They are already enshrined in the constitution as Australians - same as everyone else.

They also have lobby groups, special representative groups with access to government, and over-representation in the press.

They have the support of Labor, the Greens, the majority of Independents, as well as a number of those on the 'right' side of Parliament.
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Re: The question about a voice will be asked...
Reply #434 - Aug 3rd, 2022 at 7:00pm
 
Quote:
i see the deflection


You are deflecting John. Do you see the relevance?

Quote:
What happened with ATSIC is exactly why the voice needs to be enshrined in the constitution. As happened with Atsic, there are to many racist rednecks in politics waiting in the wings for the slightest  excuse to silence whatever voice the aborigines have


What makes you think it will be a voice for Aboriginal people, or that it is even possible for one voice to speak for half a million of them?

Quote:
so change the design.


We already have a perfectly good democracy.

Quote:
Don't eliminate whatever voice they had


What are you talking about John? Aborigines have lots of voices.

Quote:
parliament can change the people 'representing' that voice anytime they feel the voice isn't representing the people it's supposed to be.


You mean if it stops being a bunch of government stooges pretending that all people from one race think the same thoughts? Sure, they can do that any time they want, which is what will guarantee it is a bunch of government stooges pretending that all people from one race think the same thoughts. A racist, inherently corrupt institution enshrined in our constitution.
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